Don't Call yourself a Christian (if you're a Trumper)

This got buried in one of our mega threads.  I felt it needed it's own thread.  He really nails so many aspects of our current situation.


Here's the lyrics:

Nice hat. Bright red
A recycled nazi slogan Emblazoned on your head
Hold a moment...let me check
Unless I’m mistaken, that’s cross around your neck
That’s for a lover. And the hat’s for a liar
They go together like Holy water and Hellfire
Well done. Nice move
But I’ve got a hard time believing that your Jesus would approve

If you held your tongue when 45 made fun of a prisoner of war
As he lined his cronies’ pockets while abandoning the poor
If he put those kids in cages and you voiced no opposition
You can call yourself a Trumper, don’t call yourself a Christian

That bible on your shelf have you read it?
The part about loving your neighbors, about giving help to strangers
I know you say you love the guy who said it.
I hear that he loves you, but he loves all sinners too
So don’t feel special. It wasn’t earned
And You could not fill up a Dixie Cup with everything you’ve learned

You can call yourself American, that’s all well and good
You can call yourself Republican, though I don’t know why you would
You call your self pro-life while abandoning the livin'
You can call me sick heretic, but don’t call yourself a Christian

You swear that you’re "God fearing", I’d fear him too.
If I believed in him and I behaved like you
Trumpeting your righteousness while casting every stone
And worshiping a golden calf on his golden throne

if you force a girl to bear a child
And that child grows up in poverty because assistance is denied
She goes to class one sunny day
And has to hide out in a closet thanks to the NRA
She runs home, choking on the air.
Cuz the EPA’s been gutted by a gutter billionaire

Who abuses his authority, sows hatred of minorities
Steals from his own charities, defrauds his university
Brags about adultery, lies to you relentlessly
Conducts treasonous diplomacy, threatening our democracy

Takes infinite emoluments, weaponizes ignorance
Glorifies his decadence, ridicules intelligence
Undermines the sciences , invalidates alliances
Advocating violence, destroying the environment

Demonizes immigrants, puts crosshairs on our journalists
He defends the white supremacists, helps the isis terrorists
He's a Rapist and a racist, and a braggart (traitor) and a bully
A narcissist, misogynist and this is just a partial list

And if all of that’s okay with you then listen
There just might be a message you’ve been missin'
Until you make compassion your mission
Don’t call yourself a Christian.


And if you have an important topic - please start a new thread instead of burying it in a mega thread.  Thanks!  


Thanks, Jamie.  I have one comment - with all due respect, it's an important message but it's better to come from a different messenger.  A lyric that says, "You swear that you’re "God fearing", I’d fear him too./If I believed in him and I behaved like you" is "preaching to the choir", but not aimed at the people who need to be persuaded.

My preference is John Pavolovitz (https://johnpavlovitz.com/) who is very direct and I think more persuasive, given where he's coming from. Ex:

People currently supporting this President can label themselves any way they want. They can imagine themselves sanctified while perpetuating something that far more resembles Caesar of Rome than Jesus of Nazareth.They can try and retrofit Jesus’ Christianity to the bloated, self-aggrandizing, malevolent Empire they’re currently wallowing in. They can try and bastardize Jesus expansive’ “For God so loved the world” purpose statement, into a walled-off, gated community “America First” rally slogan.  They can even preach the angry gospel of white nationalism and contempt for outsiders—and call themselves Christian while doing so.

But no one in the time of Jesus would be calling them Christian.
Not the Romans.
Not the Christ followers.
Most of all, not Jesus.

The first Christians were labeled Christians, because they emulated Christ—in all his compassionate, kind, loving, healing, welcoming, border-breaching, barrier-busting goodness.  These folks emulate someone antithetical to all of it.

https://johnpavlovitz.com/2018/08/16/christians-supporting-trump-arent-christians/

After Donald Trump’s words at the White house christmas Tree lighting last year, Evangelist Franklin Graham posted on social media: “Never in my lifetime have we had a POTUS willing to take such a strong outspoken stand for the Christian faith like Donald Trump.”

(I’ll pause here to let the rational folks stop laughing.)

The Reverend may actually believe this, but I think he conveniently left out one rather critical detail: A dark-skinned, itinerant Jesus wouldn’t be allowed in Donald Trump’s America. And if he were already here, his life would be a living hell right now.

He’d be denied healthcare, detained at the airport, separated from his family, trolled relentlessly on Twitter, accosted by torch-bearing marchers, vilified by pulpit-pounding preachers, and branded a terrorist by the President himself in incendiary fake videos and fear-baiting Tweets.

https://johnpavlovitz.com/2017/12/03/trumps-america-living-hell-jesus/

Those are just some samples, but there's a lot of very persuasive and Christian material there, making the same point.


Then there is the biblical justification for Trump making him out to be a modern day Cyrus:

https://www.vox.com/identities/2018/3/5/16796892/trump-cyrus-christian-right-bible-cbn-evangelical-propaganda

While Cyrus is not Jewish and does not worship the God of Israel, he is nevertheless portrayed in Isaiah as an instrument of God — an unwitting conduit through which God effects his divine plan for history. Cyrus is, therefore, the archetype of the unlikely “vessel”: someone God has chosen for an important historical purpose, despite not looking like — or having the religious character of — an obvious man of God.

For believers who subscribe to this account, Cyrus is a perfect historical antecedent to explain Trump’s presidency: a nonbeliever who nevertheless served as a vessel for divine interest.


https://www.washingtonjewishweek.com/46126/heres-why-cyrus-was-so-great/news/

“Cyrus pursued a new paradigm of statecraft,” he added. He was inclusive, pragmatic and kept his promises."


New from John Pavlovitz, on Trump's latest inanity.

https://johnpavlovitz.com/2020/08/07/this-is-what-hurts-god-donald/

-------------------------------

Dear Donald.

I heard you claim that Joe Biden will “hurt God.”

I know you don’t know anything about the God Joe Biden has spent his life worshipping and following and praying to.
I know that actual spirituality is something foreign to your heart, that authentic faith is antithetical to who you are and how you view the world.
I know that God is simply a prop you wield, a costume you put on, a resource you rent in order to manipulate religious people.

If you knew anything about Jesus, if you’d ever read the Gospels, if you even once opened the Bible and saw what the Good News Jesus preached actually was—you’d know the kinds of things that hurt God:

160,000 Americans dying without a shred of compassion for them.
Children taken from the arms of their parents and put into dog kennels.
Families pepper-sprayed for a sociopath’s Bible-wielding photo op.
Terrified refugees denied sanctuary from their suffering.
A leader who celebrates a rising NASDAQ and ignores a rising death toll.
Dehumanizing women by talking about their genitalia.
Black men murdered in the streets and a leader who will not condemn the executioners.

Rubber bullets fired into the bodies of young mothers standing silently in solidarity with those black men.
Someone trying to take away healthcare from millions of people in a pandemic.

The Jesus who implored his followers to love the least, to care for the poor, to feed the hungry, to visit the prisoner, to welcome the stranger—this Jesus surely is being hurt in these moments.

Yes, a God of mercy fully grieves watching powerful people prey upon the vulnerable they are entrusted with caring for.
Yes, a God of justice is sickened at a nepotistic corruption that profits from the suffering of others.
Yes, a God of love is saddened by a human being who is incapable of any benevolent impulse.
Yes, a God of compassion laments a cruelty that is not moved by the death of thousands of people.
Yes, a God of goodness is horrified at the name of God being tossed like grenades by a man who hasn’t uttered an authentic prayer in his life.
Yes, a God who so loved the world is fully sickened by the America First.

Joe Biden is a flawed human being who has continually professed faith in a God you have never given a second thought to. He is a man who has aspired to become more compassionate and more understanding and more aware of the pain around him, because that is what religion at its best calls us to. That is what all earnest people of faith do.

For those of us who know that Jesus taught we are known by the outward “fruit” of our lives: that what we do and what we say and how we treat people, comprise the true testimony of what we believe and who we worship—we recognize you well.

You are a for-profit false prophet, the most predatory of wolves, the blackest darkness dressed in red, white, and blue light.

You are the gleaming orange idol your heart bows down to.

Yes, Donald, the hateful damage being done right now in the name of God is certainly something that grieves the heart of a God who is love.

Jesus looked at MAGA America and at you—and Jesus wept.


nohero said:

New from John Pavlovitz, on Trump's latest inanity.

https://johnpavlovitz.com/2020/08/07/this-is-what-hurts-god-donald/

-------------------------------

Dear Donald.

I heard you claim that Joe Biden will “hurt God.”

I know you don’t know anything about the God Joe Biden has spent his life worshipping and following and praying to.
I know that actual spirituality is something foreign to your heart, that authentic faith is antithetical to who you are and how you view the world.
I know that God is simply a prop you wield, a costume you put on, a resource you rent in order to manipulate religious people.

If you knew anything about Jesus, if you’d ever read the Gospels, if you even once opened the Bible and saw what the Good News Jesus preached actually was—you’d know the kinds of things that hurt God:

160,000 Americans dying without a shred of compassion for them.
Children taken from the arms of their parents and put into dog kennels.
Families pepper-sprayed for a sociopath’s Bible-wielding photo op.
Terrified refugees denied sanctuary from their suffering.
A leader who celebrates a rising NASDAQ and ignores a rising death toll.
Dehumanizing women by talking about their genitalia.
Black men murdered in the streets and a leader who will not condemn the executioners.

Rubber bullets fired into the bodies of young mothers standing silently in solidarity with those black men.
Someone trying to take away healthcare from millions of people in a pandemic.

The Jesus who implored his followers to love the least, to care for the poor, to feed the hungry, to visit the prisoner, to welcome the stranger—this Jesus surely is being hurt in these moments.

Yes, a God of mercy fully grieves watching powerful people prey upon the vulnerable they are entrusted with caring for.
Yes, a God of justice is sickened at a nepotistic corruption that profits from the suffering of others.
Yes, a God of love is saddened by a human being who is incapable of any benevolent impulse.
Yes, a God of compassion laments a cruelty that is not moved by the death of thousands of people.
Yes, a God of goodness is horrified at the name of God being tossed like grenades by a man who hasn’t uttered an authentic prayer in his life.
Yes, a God who so loved the world is fully sickened by the America First.

Joe Biden is a flawed human being who has continually professed faith in a God you have never given a second thought to. He is a man who has aspired to become more compassionate and more understanding and more aware of the pain around him, because that is what religion at its best calls us to. That is what all earnest people of faith do.

For those of us who know that Jesus taught we are known by the outward “fruit” of our lives: that what we do and what we say and how we treat people, comprise the true testimony of what we believe and who we worship—we recognize you well.

You are a for-profit false prophet, the most predatory of wolves, the blackest darkness dressed in red, white, and blue light.

You are the gleaming orange idol your heart bows down to.

Yes, Donald, the hateful damage being done right now in the name of God is certainly something that grieves the heart of a God who is love.

Jesus looked at MAGA America and at you—and Jesus wept.

How does anyone of faith read this and ever consider voting for Trump?


jimmurphy said:

How does anyone of faith read this and ever consider voting for Trump?

This essay by Wayne Grudem, a professor or theology and and religious studies at Phoenix Seminary whom The Atlantic described as “a significant theologian within evangelicism,” is mainly a defense against impeachment — but if you skip to Nos. 4 and 6 you get to some arguments that apply to this thread. They may shed light on how Christians match their support of Trump to their faith.

An excerpt:

I do not think a man of “grossly immoral character” (as Galli alleges) could produce this many good results. “For no good tree bears bad fruit, nor again does a bad tree bear good fruit, for each tree is known by its own fruit” (Luke 6:43-44). Trump’s character is not perfect, and I will not try to defend every single thing that comes out of his mouth. Sometimes his words are coarse and even vulgar, and I object to that. But no leader is going to be perfect, and such coarse language fades in significance compared to these massive actions for the good of the nation. Therefore I still think these results show that he is a good president. A very good president. And I am eager to vote for him again in November.

DaveSchmidt said:

jimmurphy said:

How does anyone of faith read this and ever consider voting for Trump?

This essay by Wayne Grudem, a professor or theology and and religious studies at Phoenix Seminary whom The Atlantic described as “a significant theologian within evangelicism,” is mainly a defense against impeachment — but if you skip to Nos. 4 and 6 you get to some arguments that apply to this thread. They may shed light on how Christians match their support of Trump to their faith.

An excerpt:

I do not think a man of “grossly immoral character” (as Galli alleges) could produce this many good results. “For no good tree bears bad fruit, nor again does a bad tree bear good fruit, for each tree is known by its own fruit” (Luke 6:43-44). Trump’s character is not perfect, and I will not try to defend every single thing that comes out of his mouth. Sometimes his words are coarse and even vulgar, and I object to that. But no leader is going to be perfect, and such coarse language fades in significance compared to these massive actions for the good of the nation. Therefore I still think these results show that he is a good president. A very good president. And I am eager to vote for him again in November.

It's really a Trump commercial, spiked with some (very selective) Bible quotes. What is especially interesting is that he disputes the rights of "the Left" to protect illegals through sanctuary cities by quoting from Scripture that says that we should always obey the government and cannot practice civil disobedience:

Yet the New Testament tells us, “Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment” (Romans 13:1).

That would come in handy when, one day, we have to convince the same conservative christians that the government really wants you to wear masks, put in place stricter gun control, mandate that everyone has access to healthcare, impose equal rights for LGBTQ community, etc.

As I said many times, I yet have to meet the first conservative christian who is not a complete hypocrite.


basil said:

It's really a Trump commercial, spiked with some (very selective) Bible quotes. What is especially interesting is that he disputes the rights of "the Left" to protect illegals through sanctuary cities by quoting from Scripture that says that we should always obey the government and cannot practice civil disobedience:

Yet the New Testament tells us, “Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment” (Romans 13:1).

That would come in handy when, one day, we have to convince the same conservative christians that the government really wants you to wear masks, put in place stricter gun control, mandate that everyone has access to healthcare, impose equal rights for LGBTQ community, etc.

As I said many times, I yet have to meet the first conservative christian who is not a complete hypocrite.

All governing authorities are instituted by God. Who can argue with that.

And there we see the divine mandate that all Germans should have obeyed Hitler. That all Russians should have supported Stalin and his purges. That those colonists should never have revolted.

What a bunch of claptrap.

But -

Be careful with the government, for they befriend a person only for their own needs. They appear to be friends when it is beneficial to them, but they do not stand by a person at the time of his distress.


The Bible has been quoted as a basis for racism and even genocide, just as the Koran has been quoted as a basis for terrorism.

Once heard a Christian Preacher say:

"The Devil can quote scripture"


Floyd said:

But -

Be careful with the government, for they befriend a person only for their own needs. They appear to be friends when it is beneficial to them, but they do not stand by a person at the time of his distress.

 would you care to explain? 


DaveSchmidt said:

jimmurphy said:

How does anyone of faith read this and ever consider voting for Trump?

This essay by Wayne Grudem, a professor or theology and and religious studies at Phoenix Seminary whom The Atlantic described as “a significant theologian within evangelicism,” is mainly a defense against impeachment — but if you skip to Nos. 4 and 6 you get to some arguments that apply to this thread. They may shed light on how Christians match their support of Trump to their faith.

An excerpt:

I do not think a man of “grossly immoral character” (as Galli alleges) could produce this many good results. “For no good tree bears bad fruit, nor again does a bad tree bear good fruit, for each tree is known by its own fruit” (Luke 6:43-44). Trump’s character is not perfect, and I will not try to defend every single thing that comes out of his mouth. Sometimes his words are coarse and even vulgar, and I object to that. But no leader is going to be perfect, and such coarse language fades in significance compared to these massive actions for the good of the nation. Therefore I still think these results show that he is a good president. A very good president. And I am eager to vote for him again in November.

In 2016, Wayne Grudem was FOR Trump, then in October he wasn't (because of the Access Hollywood" tape) and then when Trump didn't withdraw as a candidate penned - 

If You Don’t Like Either Candidate, Then Vote for Trump’s Policies

"I have read the Republican platform and the Democratic platform for this year. In my opinion, the Republican platform is more consistent with biblical moral principles than any platform I have ever read. And the Democratic platform is more antithetical to Christian principles than any platform I have read."

So we're back to the discussion of which policies are more consistent with a Christian viewpoint.  Mr. Grudem is not big on things like increasing the minimum wage, and health care, so the reader can decide how they feel about his interpretation of what's "consistent with biblical moral principles".


basil said:

DaveSchmidt said:

jimmurphy said:

How does anyone of faith read this and ever consider voting for Trump?

This essay by Wayne Grudem, a professor or theology and and religious studies at Phoenix Seminary whom The Atlantic described as “a significant theologian within evangelicism,” is mainly a defense against impeachment — but if you skip to Nos. 4 and 6 you get to some arguments that apply to this thread. They may shed light on how Christians match their support of Trump to their faith.

An excerpt:

I do not think a man of “grossly immoral character” (as Galli alleges) could produce this many good results. “For no good tree bears bad fruit, nor again does a bad tree bear good fruit, for each tree is known by its own fruit” (Luke 6:43-44). Trump’s character is not perfect, and I will not try to defend every single thing that comes out of his mouth. Sometimes his words are coarse and even vulgar, and I object to that. But no leader is going to be perfect, and such coarse language fades in significance compared to these massive actions for the good of the nation. Therefore I still think these results show that he is a good president. A very good president. And I am eager to vote for him again in November.

It's really a Trump commercial, spiked with some (very selective) Bible quotes. What is especially interesting is that he disputes the rights of "the Left" to protect illegals through sanctuary cities by quoting from Scripture that says that we should always obey the government and cannot practice civil disobedience:

Yet the New Testament tells us, “Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment” (Romans 13:1).

That would come in handy when, one day, we have to convince the same conservative christians that the government really wants you to wear masks, put in place stricter gun control, mandate that everyone has access to healthcare, impose equal rights for LGBTQ community, etc.

As I said many times, I yet have to meet the first conservative christian who is not a complete hypocrite.

 Mark Shea is a Catholic writer who has some commentary about the GOP and evangelical support for the GOP based on Romans 13 -

Let’s talk about Romans 13

"To begin with, note something rather obvious: Paul is an apostle of Jesus Christ, the Savior who was murdered by the power of the state. If you don’t get that, you don’t understand the first thing about Paul’s view of the state. He is not, absolutely not, an idiot who believes the state is always right."

The whole thing is a discussion of using Romans 13 in political discourse.


nohero said:

... so the reader can decide how they feel about his interpretation of what's "consistent with biblical moral principles".

I was wondering why I posted it.


Here is what I never understood. If one believes in God and that She is omnipotent and determines everything that happens why concern oneself with politics at all?


STANV said:

Here is what I never understood. If one believes in God and that She is omnipotent and determines everything that happens why concern oneself with politics at all?

 Free will.


DaveSchmidt said:

jimmurphy said:

How does anyone of faith read this and ever consider voting for Trump?

This essay by Wayne Grudem, a professor or theology and and religious studies at Phoenix Seminary whom The Atlantic described as “a significant theologian within evangelicism,” is mainly a defense against impeachment — but if you skip to Nos. 4 and 6 you get to some arguments that apply to this thread. They may shed light on how Christians match their support of Trump to their faith.

An excerpt:

I do not think a man of “grossly immoral character” (as Galli alleges) could produce this many good results. “For no good tree bears bad fruit, nor again does a bad tree bear good fruit, for each tree is known by its own fruit” (Luke 6:43-44). Trump’s character is not perfect, and I will not try to defend every single thing that comes out of his mouth. Sometimes his words are coarse and even vulgar, and I object to that. But no leader is going to be perfect, and such coarse language fades in significance compared to these massive actions for the good of the nation. Therefore I still think these results show that he is a good president. A very good president. And I am eager to vote for him again in November.

Sorry Dave, an intellectual analysis will not sway me here. People know right from wrong. I believe they just choose to ignore wrong when it doesn’t conveniently fit their perceived interests.

How they can live with the hypocrisy is beyond me.


jimmurphy said:

Sorry Dave, an intellectual analysis will not sway me here.

No worries, Jim; no swaying intended. I went looking for a reputable answer to the question you raised, and that’s what I found. 


nohero said:

basil said:

DaveSchmidt said:

jimmurphy said:

How does anyone of faith read this and ever consider voting for Trump?

This essay by Wayne Grudem, a professor or theology and and religious studies at Phoenix Seminary whom The Atlantic described as “a significant theologian within evangelicism,” is mainly a defense against impeachment — but if you skip to Nos. 4 and 6 you get to some arguments that apply to this thread. They may shed light on how Christians match their support of Trump to their faith.

An excerpt:

I do not think a man of “grossly immoral character” (as Galli alleges) could produce this many good results. “For no good tree bears bad fruit, nor again does a bad tree bear good fruit, for each tree is known by its own fruit” (Luke 6:43-44). Trump’s character is not perfect, and I will not try to defend every single thing that comes out of his mouth. Sometimes his words are coarse and even vulgar, and I object to that. But no leader is going to be perfect, and such coarse language fades in significance compared to these massive actions for the good of the nation. Therefore I still think these results show that he is a good president. A very good president. And I am eager to vote for him again in November.

It's really a Trump commercial, spiked with some (very selective) Bible quotes. What is especially interesting is that he disputes the rights of "the Left" to protect illegals through sanctuary cities by quoting from Scripture that says that we should always obey the government and cannot practice civil disobedience:

Yet the New Testament tells us, “Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment” (Romans 13:1).

That would come in handy when, one day, we have to convince the same conservative christians that the government really wants you to wear masks, put in place stricter gun control, mandate that everyone has access to healthcare, impose equal rights for LGBTQ community, etc.

As I said many times, I yet have to meet the first conservative christian who is not a complete hypocrite.

 Mark Shea is a Catholic writer who has some commentary about the GOP and evangelical support for the GOP based on Romans 13 -

Let’s talk about Romans 13

"To begin with, note something rather obvious: Paul is an apostle of Jesus Christ, the Savior who was murdered by the power of the state. If you don’t get that, you don’t understand the first thing about Paul’s view of the state. He is not, absolutely not, an idiot who believes the state is always right."

The whole thing is a discussion of using Romans 13 in political discourse.

 Shea is notable, to my mind, as having been one of the very lonely conservative voices speaking out against the Bush torture policies.


DaveSchmidt said:

jimmurphy said:

How does anyone of faith read this and ever consider voting for Trump?

This essay by Wayne Grudem, a professor or theology and and religious studies at Phoenix Seminary whom The Atlantic described as “a significant theologian within evangelicism,” is mainly a defense against impeachment — but if you skip to Nos. 4 and 6 you get to some arguments that apply to this thread. They may shed light on how Christians match their support of Trump to their faith.

An excerpt:

I do not think a man of “grossly immoral character” (as Galli alleges) could produce this many good results. “For no good tree bears bad fruit, nor again does a bad tree bear good fruit, for each tree is known by its own fruit” (Luke 6:43-44). Trump’s character is not perfect, and I will not try to defend every single thing that comes out of his mouth. Sometimes his words are coarse and even vulgar, and I object to that. But no leader is going to be perfect, and such coarse language fades in significance compared to these massive actions for the good of the nation. Therefore I still think these results show that he is a good president. A very good president. And I am eager to vote for him again in November.

As if the problem with Trump bragging about sexual assault, for instance, is the language he uses and not, you know, the sexual assault part. Who cares if you object to the course and vulgar language, it's the lack of objection to the coarse and vulgar actions that are a problem. And as for fruits, well, what kind of fruit is locking children in cages and sending secret police to abduct Americans in order to boost your campaign?

What he's selling here is a Christianity stripped of its values. You'll look, in vain, for anything evoking the Beatitudes. White conservative christians love Trump because he's standing up for them as a demographic group, not because he advances any recognizable Christian goals or beliefs. His photo-op at Lafayette Square was the perfect encapsulation of this -- a profane, un-Christian man holding up a Bible as a prop, for a voting group who has likewise reduced their Bibles and crosses to vulgar, content-less signifiers of group identity.

When they were taken up to mountain and offered power and glory, all for the small price of voting for and supporting Trump, it's shocking how quickly and eagerly they knelt.


PVW said:

What he's selling here is a Christianity stripped of its values. You'll look, in vain, for anything evoking the Beatitudes. White conservative christians love Trump because he's standing up for them as a demographic group, not because he advances any recognizable Christian goals or beliefs. His photo-op at Lafayette Square was the perfect encapsulation of this -- a profane, un-Christian man holding up a Bible as a prop, for a voting group who has likewise reduced their Bibles and crosses to vulgar, content-less signifiers of group identity.

When they were taken up to mountain and offered power and glory, all for the small price of voting for and supporting Trump, it's shocking how quickly and eagerly they knelt.

Along those same lines, there was a comment at the end of the NY Times article on Jerry Falwell Jr. taking a "leave of absence" as President of Liberty University.

Calum Best, 22, who graduated from Liberty in May and who has spoken out against Mr. Falwell’s political activity, called the move “a victory.”

“He is the one who holds up Liberty’s culture of focus on money, material well-being, political nationalism,” he said. “Without Falwell gone, we can’t really change any of that.”

I think that highlighted description applies to a lot of Trump's Christian supporters.

Or as Mark Shea calls them, "Christianists".


jimmurphy said:

Timely...
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/09/us/evangelicals-trump-christianity.html?referringSource=articleShare

Very timely.

For those of you who have difficulty getting in -

Mr. Trump’s fans welcomed him by chanting his name.

In his dark suit and red tie, Mr. Trump stood in front of a three-story-tall pipe organ and waved his arms in time with their shouts: Trump, Trump, Trump.

The promise that he “could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody” and “wouldn’t lose any voters” — overshadowed another message that morning.

Chanting of the leaders name. The kind of nonsense associated with cults. In religion often satanic.

The message being -

“I will tell you, Christianity is under tremendous siege, whether we want to talk about it or we don’t want to talk about it,” Mr. Trump said.

Christians make up the overwhelming majority of the country, he said. And then he slowed slightly to stress each next word: “And yet we don’t exert the power that we should have.”

If he were elected president, he promised, that would change. He raised a finger.

“Christianity will have power,” he said. “If I’m there, you’re going to have plenty of power, you don’t need anybody else. You’re going to have somebody representing you very, very well. Remember that.”

Trump promising his followers power if they followed him, and only him.

It parallels where Satan told Jesus he would give Him the whole world if He would worship him. Satan promises riches, fame and power over people.

Satan promising Jesus the world whereas Trump is promising his followers.

Trump lies all the time. That is so obvious. The father of lies is Satan. What does that say about Trump emulating him? A false prophet?

Believing Christians who follow Trump should be worried. A lot. But they won't.


What if they self identify as Christians? 


terp said:

What if they self identify as Christians? 

 That's the premise of the thread - the question is, should they "self-identify" as that?  That is, is that self-identification reflected in how they treat other people.


I'll say as I've suggested before, I'm guessing abortion is the biggest sin to Evangelicals and other religious groups. They will continue to support Republicans and point to Democrats support of choice.  Trump made it a centerpiece in his State of the Union with graphic examples. As long as Trump appoints conservative judges, they believe they have a shot at overturning Roe v Wade.

He gave them 187 such judges at last count in January.

I'm not surprised by their support. I don't think anyone will change their minds.


nohero said:

terp said:

What if they self identify as Christians? 

 That's the premise of the thread - the question is, should they "self-identify" as that?  That is, is that self-identification reflected in how they treat other people.

 But I think people might get insulted if they identify as Christians and you call them something else.  They will certainly get upset if you tell them not to call themselves Christian. 


terp said:

 But I think people might get insulted if they identify as Christians and you call them something else.  They will certainly get upset if you tell them not to call themselves Christian. 

 It's not so much "tell them not to" but more like asking, "if you call yourself Christian".  It may sound harsh, but it's still an invitation to consider what choices you think you want to make.

It's a debate as old as the New Testament.  There's even a verse for that.  "What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?  If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, 'Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,' but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.  Indeed someone may say, 'You have faith and I have works.' Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works." (James 2:14-18)


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