For profit education in trouble? At least for colleges it is!
Mar 25, 2015 at 2:49pm Edited
The government money is now restricted. That's all you need to know. And this. . .
". . .For-profit colleges only enroll roughly 12% of the country's students, but accounted for about half of student loan defaults in 2013, according to federal data.
Those types of stats spurred the Obama administration last March to limit federal aid dolled out to for-profit colleges -- a challenge for places like the University of Phoenix."
". . .For-profit colleges only enroll roughly 12% of the country's students, but accounted for about half of student loan defaults in 2013, according to federal data.
Those types of stats spurred the Obama administration last March to limit federal aid dolled out to for-profit colleges -- a challenge for places like the University of Phoenix."
I wonder how much of it is tied to the dawning realization that the kid with the expensive 4 year degree is likely serving coffee to the kid who skipped school taught himself Python as he heads to his overpaid software developer job.
People have known for ages that these for profit "colleges" are for kids and families who are gullible enough to not understand the differences in education offered by these schools. The profits know how to advertise to the gullible, who really cannot manage. Then these kids are left with huge debt, no job, no education. They were right to clamp down on these schools which were mostly rackets.
Maybe a little off topic, but this article paints a picture of education that is rapidly changing across the spectrum.
The Deconstruction of the K-12 Teacher
http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/03/the-deconstruction-of-the-k-12-teacher/388631/
The Deconstruction of the K-12 Teacher
http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/03/the-deconstruction-of-the-k-12-teacher/388631/
Abe_Froman said:
Maybe a little off topic, but this article paints a picture of education that is rapidly changing across the spectrum.
The Deconstruction of the K-12 Teacher
http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/03/the-deconstruction-of-the-k-12-teacher/388631/
So does this mean that the days when some teachers made a life-changing difference to some kids are coming to an end? I don't disagree with what the article has to say but I wonder what will happen to kids who don't have a supportive home environment. They already have a tough time of it.
Mar 25, 2015 at 5:04pm Edited
marcsiry said:
I wonder how much of it is tied to the dawning realization that the kid with the expensive 4 year degree is likely serving coffee to the kid who skipped school taught himself Python as he heads to his overpaid software developer job.
I'm not sure it's a dawning realization as much as a damining yet unrealized (to the for-profit schools ) fact. That said there are tons of for-profit nursing and trade schools screwing students all over the place with crappy educations that cost a fortune and offer little hope of a well paying job.
I tend to agree with the article -- for-profit companies want to take over education and grab the public dollars. The PARCC test which will be rolling in hundreds of millions of dollars for Pearson when it is fully operational is just one harbinger of the future. Add in Khan Academy and others who invented the phrase "flipped classroom" and you can see a convergence of standardized course offerings (for some schools they may be better and for others not so good).
The schools that may suffer a great deal are the private schools as they will have nothing other than high tuition to distinguish themselves from other schools.
I do find it dubious in the sense that great education will ensue. Kids will still be with their "facilitators" all day and then will still have to pursue sports and extra-curriculars and then and only then start "learning" late at night, while the phone is next to the computer. So at 11PM at night are Mom and Dad going to watch their kids on the computer and make sure all social media are off? They don't now, why would they then?
I am at the end of career -- just a few more years. I do not know what education will look like in 20 years. For some schools and populations, maybe the Internet and things like it will be better. For a lot of kids, it won't be better; it might be cheaper, but hardly better.
The schools that may suffer a great deal are the private schools as they will have nothing other than high tuition to distinguish themselves from other schools.
I do find it dubious in the sense that great education will ensue. Kids will still be with their "facilitators" all day and then will still have to pursue sports and extra-curriculars and then and only then start "learning" late at night, while the phone is next to the computer. So at 11PM at night are Mom and Dad going to watch their kids on the computer and make sure all social media are off? They don't now, why would they then?
I am at the end of career -- just a few more years. I do not know what education will look like in 20 years. For some schools and populations, maybe the Internet and things like it will be better. For a lot of kids, it won't be better; it might be cheaper, but hardly better.
If facilitators are audio-visual technicians, education like this will be a failure. While technology has a lot to offer, I don't believe that good things will come from dehumanizing education.
What are the graduation rates and job placement rates of America's community colleges -- entirely funded by government?
Trans_Parent said:
What are the graduation rates and job placement rates of America's community colleges -- entirely funded by government?
Essex County college costs $148/credit according to their website.
Mar 26, 2015 at 2:26am Edited
Anyway, the problem with spending on education is that graduates will find jobs only to the extent that the economy creates jobs. On the flip side, if the demand for workers is great, companies will train raw recruits.
https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator_cva.asp
Looks like 20% grad rate at 2-yr public and 63% at for profits, based on liberal 3-yr graduation yardstick.
Looks like 20% grad rate at 2-yr public and 63% at for profits, based on liberal 3-yr graduation yardstick.
The "audio-visual technician" concept is a little simplistic, though. Like many professions, there are a bundle of skills that technology can unbundle. Teachers play several roles, some that are open to centralization, such as:
- Content creators - writing their own lesson plans and materials
- Presenters - delivering the prepared speeches and materials
- Evaluators - creating and executing the tests to ensure mastery of the material
And other roles that are best performed locally:
- Coaches - identifying, motivating, and addressing individual performance gaps
- Facilitators - guiding interactions between students and making connections opportunistically
- AV Guy - definitely need someone to work the projector
I have no doubt technology will change education, and it won't be all sunshine and unicorns, but I think there will always be a place for a dedicated local professional in the classroom.
- Content creators - writing their own lesson plans and materials
- Presenters - delivering the prepared speeches and materials
- Evaluators - creating and executing the tests to ensure mastery of the material
And other roles that are best performed locally:
- Coaches - identifying, motivating, and addressing individual performance gaps
- Facilitators - guiding interactions between students and making connections opportunistically
- AV Guy - definitely need someone to work the projector
I have no doubt technology will change education, and it won't be all sunshine and unicorns, but I think there will always be a place for a dedicated local professional in the classroom.
Trans_Parent said:
What are the graduation rates and job placement rates of America's community colleges -- entirely funded by government?
Curious, what community colleges are entirely funded by government? My brother attended community college in NJ and he definitely paid tuition. Serious question, not being snarky.
I don't think about he focus should be whether the school is profit or non. There are plenty of students graduating from non-profits with useless degrees and a ton of debt.
I'd also like to point out that non-profit is a dubious distinction. The NFL is non profit. The NCAA is non profit. The GOVERNMENT is non profit. Seems to me that all you have to do is just spend all your money.
I'd also like to point out that non-profit is a dubious distinction. The NFL is non profit. The NCAA is non profit. The GOVERNMENT is non profit. Seems to me that all you have to do is just spend all your money.
Most everyone pays tuition at community college unless they are attending under a specific grant or affirmative action program. The community colleges in NJ receive funding to operate from the State and the county. It doesn't preclude tuition though. Just like state schools are funded by state dollars, you still pay tuition.
By the way, of course the graduation rate is higher at for profit schools. Thats the whole point and problem with for-profits. They have a huge monetary interest in graduating students. Community colleges are educating the vast majority of the country's college students, something like 65%. Did you know that? And they are open admissions, for the most part. And they are on the front lines, educating the least educated, least wealthy, most challenged of our students. They then provide their graduates with real skills to transition into actual careers that enable actual self- sustenance.
By the way, of course the graduation rate is higher at for profit schools. Thats the whole point and problem with for-profits. They have a huge monetary interest in graduating students. Community colleges are educating the vast majority of the country's college students, something like 65%. Did you know that? And they are open admissions, for the most part. And they are on the front lines, educating the least educated, least wealthy, most challenged of our students. They then provide their graduates with real skills to transition into actual careers that enable actual self- sustenance.
PurpleMonkeyDshwashr said:
Trans_Parent said:
What are the graduation rates and job placement rates of America's community colleges -- entirely funded by government?
Curious, what community colleges are entirely funded by government? My brother attended community college in NJ and he definitely paid tuition. Serious question, not being snarky.
Community colleges are not entirely funded by government.
However, President Obama has been promoting a proposal for 2 free years of community college for all. This proposal is nowhere near becoming a reality.
Percents.
It's from TP's link above: https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator_cva.asp
Figure 2. Percentage of students seeking a bachelor’s degree at 4-year degree-granting institutions who completed a bachelor’s degree within 6 years, by control of institution and sex: Starting cohort year 2006
It's from TP's link above: https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator_cva.asp
Figure 2. Percentage of students seeking a bachelor’s degree at 4-year degree-granting institutions who completed a bachelor’s degree within 6 years, by control of institution and sex: Starting cohort year 2006
RobB said:
Percents.
Heh, yes, I saw that part on the graph.
Didn't know that the percentages were of those graduating with a BA in 6 years.FWIW: That chart doesn't include Community Colleges (since they are 2-year, not 4-year degree-granting institutions).
Just picking cherries. It's all pretty meaningless since they lump certificates and two year degrees into the same category. An online basket weaving certificate has exactly nothing in common with an associates degree in accounting. Graduation rates between the two are bound to be different.
A degree at one of these places is worthless.
And for-profit colleges have been lobbying against giving state community colleges the ability to offer 4-year programs....
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/college_guide/blog/university_of_phoenix_lobbies.php
"The state of Arizona, as part of an effort to save money and get more Arizonians though college, was considering a plan to allow the state’s community colleges to offer bachelor’s degrees.
And then it decided not to. Why? It appears lobbying had a lot to do with it. And what sort of institution wants to ensure that community colleges can’t offer low priced bachelor’s degrees to the state’s poor and working class students?
That’s right: for-profit colleges. According to a piece by Sarah Pavlus at the American Independent:
The University of Phoenix played a key role in defeating legislation that would have allowed community colleges in Arizona to offer low-priced bachelor’s degree programs, interviews and state records show.
Beginning in 2005, the University of Phoenix lobbied Arizona state lawmakers against the degree programs, arguing that they would cost taxpayers too much money, duplicate existing programs, and “harm” the private college sector. The company also sponsored research, circulated a letter, and published an op-ed opposing the programs.
It’s possible that community college bachelor’s degrees would cost Arizona taxpayers more money and duplicate existing programs, of course, but more crucially from Phoenix’s perspective, the program would have eaten into its lucrative business model."
And for-profit colleges have been lobbying against giving state community colleges the ability to offer 4-year programs....
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/college_guide/blog/university_of_phoenix_lobbies.php
"The state of Arizona, as part of an effort to save money and get more Arizonians though college, was considering a plan to allow the state’s community colleges to offer bachelor’s degrees.
And then it decided not to. Why? It appears lobbying had a lot to do with it. And what sort of institution wants to ensure that community colleges can’t offer low priced bachelor’s degrees to the state’s poor and working class students?
That’s right: for-profit colleges. According to a piece by Sarah Pavlus at the American Independent:
The University of Phoenix played a key role in defeating legislation that would have allowed community colleges in Arizona to offer low-priced bachelor’s degree programs, interviews and state records show.
Beginning in 2005, the University of Phoenix lobbied Arizona state lawmakers against the degree programs, arguing that they would cost taxpayers too much money, duplicate existing programs, and “harm” the private college sector. The company also sponsored research, circulated a letter, and published an op-ed opposing the programs.
It’s possible that community college bachelor’s degrees would cost Arizona taxpayers more money and duplicate existing programs, of course, but more crucially from Phoenix’s perspective, the program would have eaten into its lucrative business model."
Also missing from these stats are the students who transfer from a public 2-year college to a 4-year college without graduating first, and these are the true success stories...
Corinthian, another for profit "college" filed for bankruptcy and closed all of its schools.
http://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/profit-corinthian-colleges-files-bankruptcy-n353276
Here's a longer article on Corinthian's demise:
http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/04/the-meltdown-of-a-for-profit-college-behemoth/391925/
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Attendance five years ago was 460,000 vs 213,000 now!!
Revenues were just under $5 billion in 2010 and have dropped to about $2.7 billion.
Some reasons were given in the article but there could be many: not so hot education at U Phoenix, gov't initiatives aimed at community college kids, on-line courses and probably a few other reasons.
http://www.abc15.com/news/national/university-of-phoenix-has-lost-half-its-students?google_editors_picks=true