Green New Deal

and I'm not surprised the GND is getting such a negative reaction on MOL.  I alluded to it above, and it's an argument I've had with a number of Maplewoodians in the past.  We have this reputation of being a "leftist" town, but only to a degree.  On social issues and the environment, our residents tend to lean very far left of the rest of the country.  But on economic issues, the median Maplewood voter is probably as conservative as he or she would have been back when the Republicans ran the town.  It's probably largely due to the fact that a perfect storm of conditions leaves us with property taxes that are even insane for NJ.  People tend to feel like they already pay enough taxes, so I don't see too many people supporting issues that might cost them personally.  I don't see widespread support among people here for Medicare for all, a living wage, low cost or free college, and many of the other aspects of a social democracy agenda.  People here seem more likely to say that all of those goals would be impossible to enact, too painful, too expensive, etc., etc.


“Don’t be fooled 

by the rocks in my head

I’m still, I’m still

Sandy from the burbs.”


Robert_Casotto said:
“Don’t be fooled 
by the rocks in my head
I’m still, I’m still
Sandy from the burbs.”

I'm glad I don't know who you are.  If I did, I'd be embarrassed on your behalf.


ml1 said:


Smedley said:
cast the Dems as loony libs. 
yeah, there was no way they would have done that without this document...  angry 

 Yes they’ll do it no matter what. But how effective they’ll be is an open question. Stuff like this helps them be more effective. 


This is a crazy, crazy document.  I mean, it's unrealistic.  Here's what I don't get. AOC is quoted on record as saying that we have 12 years to fix this.   Let's say that there was an asteroid coming in 12 years.  Would we really go and create some unrealistic jobs program as part of the effort to divert or destroy the asteroid?  

But that's Washington.  Reality just does not matter.  I think this article is pretty dead on.

The most refreshing part of the Green New Deal’s proposals though is how honest and transparent the document is – a rarity for Washington. The proposal makes its own comparisons to military plans, stating its objective is “to mobilize every aspect of American society at a scale not seen since World War 2” and remarking at the government’s past success of outperforming expectations when it comes to the manufacturing of war machines. It doesn’t try to downplay the revolutionary vision outlined in the brief, nor even try to act as if this is some sort of policy that will pay for itself, instead it explicitly advocates for it to be financed through the monetary magic of the Federal Reserve.

It is in her honesty in which Ms. Ocasio-Cortez’s true weakness as a politician lies.

After all, the very same class of political pundits and politicians – on both the left and right – that have decided it is safe to laugh at the freshman Congresswoman’s proposal are almost all guilty of promoting and supporting plans that are similarly absurd.



hey terp,

what's the libertarian/capitalist plan re global warming?


Tho Bishop, the Mises Institute writer linked to above, takes this line from the Overview:

“build out high-speed rail at a scale where air travel stops becoming necessary”

And mocks it this way:

“advocating policies such as building high-speed rail to Hawaii”

Get it? Just a heads-up to all from this oblique reader.


drummerboy said:
hey terp,
what's the libertarian/capitalist plan re global warming?

 Nobody will drive because there will be no roads. 

DaveSchmidt said:
Tho Bishop, the Mises Institute writer linked to above, takes this line from the Overview:
“build out high-speed rail at a scale where air travel stops becoming necessary”

And mocks it this way:
“advocating policies such as building high-speed rail to Hawaii”
Get it? Just a heads-up to all from this oblique reader.

 How will we get to Hawaii?  And how will you travel between Hawaiian islands? 


terp said:


drummerboy said:
hey terp,
what's the libertarian/capitalist plan re global warming?
 Nobody will drive because there will be no roads. 
DaveSchmidt said:
Tho Bishop, the Mises Institute writer linked to above, takes this line from the Overview:
“build out high-speed rail at a scale where air travel stops becoming necessary”

And mocks it this way:
“advocating policies such as building high-speed rail to Hawaii”
Get it? Just a heads-up to all from this oblique reader.
 How will we get to Hawaii?  And how will you travel between Hawaiian islands? 

 Dave, I think you have to explain it again. Less obliquely.

terp is, unfortunately, the intended audience for that piece of disinfo.


drummerboy said:

Dave, I think you have to explain it again. Less obliquely. 

Just as soon as I figure out how I’m getting to Davos in 2030, because nobody has a plan for transatlantic travel, either.


DaveSchmidt said:


drummerboy said:

Dave, I think you have to explain it again. Less obliquely. 
Just as soon as I figure out how I’m getting to Davos in 2030, because nobody has a plan for transatlantic travel, either.

Photo Taken Before Titanic Sinking 


No way. See the sooty emissions coming from that thing?


Train to Hawaii?

That's as dumb as believing humans could fly.


Or as dumb as believing anyone else believed it.


Smedley said:
No way. See the sooty emissions coming from that thing?

"Hjalti Pall Ingolfsson from Icelandic New Energy has commented that ships are fast becoming the biggest source of air pollution in the European Union. It is estimated that by 2020 emissions of sulfur dioxide and nitrogen oxides from ships will exceed land-based emissions in Europe. A big issue to be dealt with would be the storage of hydrogen on ships, given that there would be no opportunity to refill them when out at sea, although one can use wind power and solar panels to generate electricity from the ocean while they are far from the shores and produce onboard hydrogen."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_ship

https://www.ship-technology.com/features/featureis-there-a-future-for-hydrogen-powered-ship-propulsion-5731545/



 


AOC tweeted that there are "doctored" and draft versions of the resolution which should be disregarded.

This appears to be the official version:

https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-resolution/109/text

Re: the mockery above, I didn't find the words "unwilling," "massive transformation" or "airplane" in the above text.

There are two key concepts that underlie the proposal:

(1) We have 12 years to avert climate catastrophe:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/oct/08/global-warming-must-not-exceed-15c-warns-landmark-un-report

(2) We have the technical and scientific know-how to achieve the 12-year deadline. We just need the political will.

USA:

http://web.stanford.edu/group/efmh/jacobson/Articles/I/USStatesWWS.pdf

The World:

http://web.stanford.edu/group/efmh/jacobson/Articles/I/CombiningRenew/WorldGridIntegration.pdf



paulsurovell said:
Re: the mockery above, I didn't find the words "unwilling," "massive transformation" or "airplane" in the above text.

They appear in the Overview and FAQ which had been posted on AOC's website and were taken down because of the gaffes.  

""This is a massive transformation of our society "

"speed rail at a scale where air travel stops becoming necessary, "

" Economic security for all who are  unable or unwilling to  work"

https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/5729035/Green-New-Deal-FAQ.pdf


Solid 70% of the country will not be on board with this.    It will be way way cheaper for humans to adapt to the climate changing, like we have for a good while, than guessing at ways that may or may not move the needle .01%     Somehow we keep getting more and more efficient with less CO2 per person in this country.    In developing countries they will need to rely on things like cheap coal, that is so much better than burning dung in their houses or not having air conditioning, for years to come.   



Anthem said:
Solid 70% of the country will not be on board with this.    It will be way way cheaper for humans to adapt to the climate changing, like we have for a good while, than guessing at ways that may or may not move the needle .01%     Somehow we keep getting more and more efficient with less CO2 per person in this country.    In developing countries they will need to rely on things like cheap coal, that is so much better than burning dung in their houses or not having air conditioning, for years to come.   

yeah, this is wrong. Support is currently quite high, for what that's worth. And I'm not sure how we've been "adapting" so far - probably because we haven't.


If the 2020 Democratic candidate embraces the Green New Deal as a core part of his/her platform, in my view that effectively hands Trump re-election. 


Anthem said:
Solid 70% of the country will not be on board with this.    It will be way way cheaper for humans to adapt to the climate changing, like we have for a good while, than guessing at ways that may or may not move the needle .01%     Somehow we keep getting more and more efficient with less CO2 per person in this country.    In developing countries they will need to rely on things like cheap coal, that is so much better than burning dung in their houses or not having air conditioning, for years to come.   


There is growing support for taking meaningful action to reduce CO2 emissions.

As for the cost of adapting to change, it is quite unknowable.  Worst case scenarios have sea level rises of 6 feet by the end of the century.  I don't know how you even begin to calculate the cost of that.  Add in the cost of the collapse of agriculture in some areas.  And the cost of some areas becoming literally uninhabitable due to higher temperatures.

Finally, organizations have been working for years to come up with cheaper, cleaner stoves for poor people in developing countries.  And coal is not part of that equation.

Doing nothing is not an option.  Mankind is actually going to have to figure ways to remove carbon from the atmosphere.


When Sandy from the Burbs gets primaried and/or gerrymandered out of Congress, she’s got a future in bad science fiction.


Are you so sure that moving people to different areas and adapting is more expensive than doing what it takes to insure that the climate doesn't warm to problematic levels?    I suspect it it 1/100 the cost to do the former.   


Anthem said:
Are you so sure that moving people to different areas and adapting is more expensive than doing what it takes to insure that the climate doesn't warm to problematic levels?    I suspect it it 1/100 the cost to do the former.   

move who to where? and how does one "adapt" to shorter growing seasons, or a rapidly decreasing insect population, or extended droughts, or declining seafood yields from our oceans, or any of the myriad effects of warming?



drummerboy said:


Anthem said:
Are you so sure that moving people to different areas and adapting is more expensive than doing what it takes to insure that the climate doesn't warm to problematic levels?    I suspect it it 1/100 the cost to do the former.   
move who to where? and how does one "adapt" to shorter growing seasons, or a rapidly decreasing insect population, or extended droughts, or declining seafood yields from our oceans, or any of the myriad effects of warming?

Forget it, he's rolling.

 


Maybe the phantom 3 billion we “saved” from killing those Amazon jobs will help pay for the sea trains.  And think off all the dough we’ll save from not having any more babies.  And eating rationed Ore Ida Golden Crinkles for dinner.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/aoc-still-ok-children-age-131516980.html


Robert_Casotto said:
Maybe the phantom 3 billion we “saved” from killing those Amazon jobs will help pay for the sea trains.  And think off all the dough we’ll save from not having any more babies.  And eating rationed Ore Ida Golden Crinkles for dinner.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/aoc-still-ok-children-age-131516980.html

 LOL when that one person in the video asks her if she should be composting. 


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