Hillary was right

We all should have listened.

And after the debate, the liberal media trashed Hillary for being uncivil.


here's a good twitter thread that expands on this topic


Right, let's have war with Russia instead, just like Hillary wanted with her "No Fly Zone."


because that was the choice right?

Trump or War with Russia?

hokay


My favorite Trump stunt was the pre debate press conference that he held with a few of Bill's accusers.

Of course the GOP had already let him get away with being a no show at one of their debates and holding a competing event.

The man has no shame.


drummerboy said:
because that was the choice right?
Trump or War with Russia?
hokay

 I don't know what would have happened.  But, Hillary wanted a "No Fly Zone" in Syria and that was VERY provocative and might well have led to war.  Some people chose Trump over Hillary because at that time he was saying we should not be in Syria, which is the right position.  He appeared somewhat as an anti-interventionist.  Of course that was a dumb reason to choose Trump since he  lies about everything.  Did not help Clinton at the time, though.


nan said:


drummerboy said:
because that was the choice right?
Trump or War with Russia?
hokay
 I don't know what would have happened.  But, Hillary wanted a "No Fly Zone" in Syria and that was VERY provocative and might well have led to war.  Some people chose Trump over Hillary because at that time he was saying we should not be in Syria, which is the right position.  He appeared somewhat as an anti-interventionist.  Of course that was a dumb reason to choose Trump since he  lies about everything.  Did not help Clinton at the time, though.

More mis/disinformation. The no-fly-zone was to be negotiated, not unilaterally imposed.

Big freaking difference, which was completely ignored by all of the pundits screaming about possible war with Russia.

Did Jimmy Dore ever tell you that?

It's pretty amazing she won the popular vote, given all of the misleading crap she had to deal with.


drummerboy said:


nan said:

drummerboy said:
because that was the choice right?
Trump or War with Russia?
hokay
 I don't know what would have happened.  But, Hillary wanted a "No Fly Zone" in Syria and that was VERY provocative and might well have led to war.  Some people chose Trump over Hillary because at that time he was saying we should not be in Syria, which is the right position.  He appeared somewhat as an anti-interventionist.  Of course that was a dumb reason to choose Trump since he  lies about everything.  Did not help Clinton at the time, though.
More mis/disinformation. The no-fly-zone was to be negotiated, not unilaterally imposed.
Big freaking difference, which was completely ignored by all of the pundits screaming about possible war with Russia.
Did Jimmy Dore ever tell you that?

It's pretty amazing she won the popular vote, given all of the misleading crap she had to deal with.

 She should have been campaigning to get out of Syria.  We don't belong there. What happened to Democrats being anti-war?  Seems the Democrats and Republicans both listen to the same neocon advisers. Not much of a choice there, and, sad to say, Trump's position on that was better (except he was lying--but some did not realize that).   It's pretty amazing that the DNC chose this candidate to nominate for President.  The one person who could lose to an psycho orange reality TV star.


nan said:


drummerboy said:

nan said:

drummerboy said:
because that was the choice right?
Trump or War with Russia?
hokay
 I don't know what would have happened.  But, Hillary wanted a "No Fly Zone" in Syria and that was VERY provocative and might well have led to war.  Some people chose Trump over Hillary because at that time he was saying we should not be in Syria, which is the right position.  He appeared somewhat as an anti-interventionist.  Of course that was a dumb reason to choose Trump since he  lies about everything.  Did not help Clinton at the time, though.
More mis/disinformation. The no-fly-zone was to be negotiated, not unilaterally imposed.
Big freaking difference, which was completely ignored by all of the pundits screaming about possible war with Russia.
Did Jimmy Dore ever tell you that?

It's pretty amazing she won the popular vote, given all of the misleading crap she had to deal with.
 She should have been campaigning to get out of Syria.  We don't belong there. What happened to Democrats being anti-war?  Seems the Democrats and Republicans both listen to the same neocon advisers. Not much of a choice there, and, sad to say, Trump's position on that was better (except he was lying--but some did not realize that).   It's pretty amazing that the DNC chose this candidate to nominate for President.  The one person who could lose to an psycho orange reality TV star.

 yeah, ignore what I said about the facts of her no-fly-zone, and just change the subject.


In hindsight, a negotiated no-fly zone would have saved a lot of lives.


drummerboy said:


nan said:

drummerboy said:

nan said:

drummerboy said:
because that was the choice right?
Trump or War with Russia?
hokay
 I don't know what would have happened.  But, Hillary wanted a "No Fly Zone" in Syria and that was VERY provocative and might well have led to war.  Some people chose Trump over Hillary because at that time he was saying we should not be in Syria, which is the right position.  He appeared somewhat as an anti-interventionist.  Of course that was a dumb reason to choose Trump since he  lies about everything.  Did not help Clinton at the time, though.
More mis/disinformation. The no-fly-zone was to be negotiated, not unilaterally imposed.
Big freaking difference, which was completely ignored by all of the pundits screaming about possible war with Russia.
Did Jimmy Dore ever tell you that?

It's pretty amazing she won the popular vote, given all of the misleading crap she had to deal with.
 She should have been campaigning to get out of Syria.  We don't belong there. What happened to Democrats being anti-war?  Seems the Democrats and Republicans both listen to the same neocon advisers. Not much of a choice there, and, sad to say, Trump's position on that was better (except he was lying--but some did not realize that).   It's pretty amazing that the DNC chose this candidate to nominate for President.  The one person who could lose to an psycho orange reality TV star.
 yeah, ignore what I said about the facts of her no-fly-zone, and just change the subject.

 I don't think you can negotiate a no-fly zone.  Seems like a very provocative move and for what?  As I said, I don't want a candidate trying to negotiate a no-fly zone in Syria, a place we should not even be fighting in.  We should not be flying in Syria. Given Hillary's record on regime change (she made a huge mess out of Libya and did awful things in Honduras and other places) I was not on board for her ideas on foreign policy.


“Some people” chose Trump over Hillary because they were bitter sore losers over their boy Bernie. Oh, and also because they are morons.


nan said:


drummerboy said:
because that was the choice right?
Trump or War with Russia?
hokay
 I don't know what would have happened.  But, Hillary wanted a "No Fly Zone" in Syria and that was VERY provocative and might well have led to war.  Some people chose Trump over Hillary because at that time he was saying we should not be in Syria, which is the right position.  He appeared somewhat as an anti-interventionist.  Of course that was a dumb reason to choose Trump since he  lies about everything.  Did not help Clinton at the time, though.

 Are you saying Hillary lost because she didn't lie hard enough?


nan said:


 She should have been campaigning to get out of Syria.  We don't belong there. What happened to Democrats being anti-war?  Seems the Democrats and Republicans both listen to the same neocon advisers. Not much of a choice there, and, sad to say, Trump's position on that was better (except he was lying--but some did not realize that).   It's pretty amazing that the DNC chose this candidate to nominate for President.  The one person who could lose to an psycho orange reality TV star.

That ship sailed long ago.  The correct response of the U.S. government (and I regret that I am saying this only hindsight) would have been to stay out of the Arab Spring movements and to quietly discourage armed rebellions even against regimes we don't like.  This would have meant that Guddafi and Assad would have massacred thousands of rebels, but it would be better than what has happened.

Of course, Obama would have taken no end of crap from Democrats if he had adopted a Realpolitik approach such as this.


conandrob240 said:
“Some people” chose Trump over Hillary because they were bitter sore losers over their boy Bernie. Oh, and also because they are morons.

 Extremely few Bernie supporters voted for Trump.  


nan said:

 I don't know what would have happened.  But, Hillary wanted a "No Fly Zone" in Syria and that was VERY provocative and might well have led to war.

 Some people consider Assad and Putin's war on Syrian civilians to be both provocative and war.


nan said:


conandrob240 said:
“Some people” chose Trump over Hillary because they were bitter sore losers over their boy Bernie. Oh, and also because they are morons.
 Extremely few Bernie supporters voted for Trump.  

Look at the data in this article.  Bernie/Trump voters helped carry Trump over the top in the key swing states in 2016.

https://www.npr.org/2017/08/24/545812242/1-in-10-sanders-primary-voters-ended-up-supporting-trump-survey-finds

"To answer the question that many Clinton supporters may be asking: By this data, yes — there are enough of those Sanders-Trump voters who could have potentially swung the election toward Clinton and away from Trump.

Women Are A Huge Reason Why Trump's Poll Numbers Are So Bad

Specifically, if the Sanders-Trump voters in Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania had voted for Clinton, or even stayed home on Election Day, those states would have swung to Clinton, and she would have won 46 more electoral votes, putting her at 278 — enough to win, in other words."


The article is more nuanced in its analysis than just these two paragraphs but suffice to say, more than "extremely few" Bernie supporters voted for Trump



yahooyahoo said:


nan said:


conandrob240 said:
“Some people” chose Trump over Hillary because they were bitter sore losers over their boy Bernie. Oh, and also because they are morons.
 Extremely few Bernie supporters voted for Trump.  
Look at the data in this article.  Bernie/Trump voters helped carry Trump over the top in the key swing states in 2016.
https://www.npr.org/2017/08/24/545812242/1-in-10-sanders-primary-voters-ended-up-supporting-trump-survey-finds

"To answer the question that many Clinton supporters may be asking: By this data, yes — there are enough of those Sanders-Trump voters who could have potentially swung the election toward Clinton and away from Trump.
Women Are A Huge Reason Why Trump's Poll Numbers Are So Bad
Specifically, if the Sanders-Trump voters in Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania had voted for Clinton, or even stayed home on Election Day, those states would have swung to Clinton, and she would have won 46 more electoral votes, putting her at 278 — enough to win, in other words."


The article is more nuanced in its analysis than just these two paragraphs but suffice to say, more than "extremely few" Bernie supporters voted for Trump


 rats, you beat me to it.

Sooooo, it was Bernie supporters who cost us the election.


Bernie supporters did not cost us the election.  The election was lost by the DNC insisting that the nomination go to a coporatist war monger with mountainous baggage and a strategy that ignored the working class in favor of centrist professionals.  I do know that Bernie had a lot of crossover appeal to conservatives, but those are the kind of people that despise Hillary and never were going to vote for her anyway.  A huge number of these people had voted for Obama in 2012.  Same with Jill Stein supporters.  Had they not voted for Stein, they would have stayed home or voted for someone else. Anyway, Hillary should have won in a landslide since her opponent was a psycho orange nutcase.  I have to say personally, it was difficult to vote for Hillary after the way Progressives were treated at the convention and afterwards.  They really gave the impression that they did not want our vote.  She could have picked Bernie or another Progressive for VP and it would have helped a lot, but instead she picked Tim Kaine, a guy from a Right to Work state who was to the right  of her. One bad strategy after another and they want us to think it was Russia or Bernie so they can do the same exact thing and lose in 2020.  Don't blame me.  I warned you.


dave23 said:


nan said:
 I don't know what would have happened.  But, Hillary wanted a "No Fly Zone" in Syria and that was VERY provocative and might well have led to war.
 Some people consider Assad and Putin's war on Syrian civilians to be both provocative and war.

The Western media reporting on Syria conflicts with others who view the Democratically elected Assad as having the support of the people.  I don't want to get into it here, but the same people who brought you the fake war in Iraq and Russiagate also want to bring regime change in Syria.  War is big business. Whatever--it is not our business and we should not be there.


nan said:

The Western media reporting on Syria conflicts with others who view the Democratically elected Assad as having the support of the people.  I don't want to get into it here, but the same people who brought you the fake war in Iraq and Russiagate also want to bring regime change in Syria.  War is big business. Whatever--it is not our business and we should not be there.

Assad apologists and supporters downplay it as you do. Few people advocated for regime change, but many struggled on what we ought to do. And war is a big business, and in the case Putin and his cronies were cashing in.


nan said:


conandrob240 said:
“Some people” chose Trump over Hillary because they were bitter sore losers over their boy Bernie. Oh, and also because they are morons.
 Extremely few Bernie supporters voted for Trump.  

I was actually thinking about only one when making this comment.


And “very few” most certainly made a difference in the last election.


conandrob240 said:


nan said:

conandrob240 said:
“Some people” chose Trump over Hillary because they were bitter sore losers over their boy Bernie. Oh, and also because they are morons.
 Extremely few Bernie supporters voted for Trump.  
I was actually thinking about only one when making this comment.


And “very few” most certainly made a difference in the last election.

Really, are we supposed to guess who that is?  Don't know anyone on MOL who did that.


I keep hoping this argument will stop. Both sides are wrong.

Hillary Clinton did not lose because supporters of Bernie Sanders voted for Trump or Stein or didn't vote.

Bernie Sanders would not have done better against Trump than Hillary did. Furthermore in the extreme unlikelihood that he got anywhere close to being elected President he would have suffered the same fate as Bobby Kennedy. 


ENOUGH ALREADY!!!


LOST said:
I keep hoping this argument will stop. Both sides are wrong.
Hillary Clinton did not lose because supporters of Bernie Sanders voted for Trump or Stein or didn't vote.
Bernie Sanders would not have done better against Trump than Hillary did. Furthermore in the extreme unlikelihood that he got anywhere close to being elected President he would have suffered the same fate as Bobby Kennedy. 


ENOUGH ALREADY!!!

 Yes, he would have won.  Anyone would have won except Hillary Clinton.  I don't know about the Bobby Kennedy thing.  


nan said:


  Anyone would have won except Hillary Clinton.  

 How you can possibly believe that after Trump eliminated his Republican opponents one by one is beyond me.

As to Bernie you fail to appreciate the depth of antisemitism in this Country not to mention antipathy to "Socialism". 


I recommend:

https://us.macmillan.com/tradebooksforcourses/academictrade/9781250169938/semitismbeingjewishinamericaintheageoftrump


yahooyahoo said:


nan said:


conandrob240 said:
“Some people” chose Trump over Hillary because they were bitter sore losers over their boy Bernie. Oh, and also because they are morons.
 Extremely few Bernie supporters voted for Trump.  
Look at the data in this article.  Bernie/Trump voters helped carry Trump over the top in the key swing states in 2016.
https://www.npr.org/2017/08/24/545812242/1-in-10-sanders-primary-voters-ended-up-supporting-trump-survey-finds

"To answer the question that many Clinton supporters may be asking: By this data, yes — there are enough of those Sanders-Trump voters who could have potentially swung the election toward Clinton and away from Trump.
Women Are A Huge Reason Why Trump's Poll Numbers Are So Bad
Specifically, if the Sanders-Trump voters in Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania had voted for Clinton, or even stayed home on Election Day, those states would have swung to Clinton, and she would have won 46 more electoral votes, putting her at 278 — enough to win, in other words."


The article is more nuanced in its analysis than just these two paragraphs but suffice to say, more than "extremely few" Bernie supporters voted for Trump


 I don’t know who you or this npr.org person is, but Nan said ‘extremely few Bernie supporters voted for Trump.’    That’s that, quit your triflin’.  


nan said:
Bernie supporters did not cost us the election.  

 What do you mean by us?  Who’s us?  You presume too much. 


Here is another view on the futility of "voting for Hillary."  Remember the New York Times article that interviewed people who had voted for Obama twice and then stayed home or wrote in Bernie and they don't regret it?  


yahooyahoo said:



Look at the data in this article.  Bernie/Trump voters helped carry Trump over the top in the key swing states in 2016.
https://www.npr.org/2017/08/24/545812242/1-in-10-sanders-primary-voters-ended-up-supporting-trump-survey-finds


 From the linked article:

A more important caveat, perhaps, is that other statistics suggest that this level of "defection" isn't all that out of the ordinary. Believing that all those Sanders voters somehow should have been expected to not vote for Trump may be to misunderstand how primary voters behave.

For example, Schaffner tells NPR that around 12 percent of Republican primary voters (including 34 percent of Ohio Gov. John Kasich voters and 11 percent of Florida Sen. Marco Rubio voters) ended up voting for Clinton. And according to one 2008 study, around 25 percent of Clinton primary voters in that election ended up voting for Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., in the general. (In addition, the data showed 13 percent of McCain primary voters ended up voting for Obama, and 9 percent of Obama voters ended up voting for McCain — perhaps signaling something that swayed voters between primaries and the general election, or some amount of error in the data, or both.)

All of that said, one other figure that stuck out to Schaffner: Compared with those numbers above, Clinton 2016 voters were remarkably loyal — "I found basically no Clinton primary voters who voted for Trump," he told NPR in an email.


I believe this proves what I have been trying to say. There are a lot of very stupid people out there.   


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