Honda software upgrade?

I just got an email from Madison Honda which, in part, says the following:

"From time to time American Honda Motor Company releases Powertrain Control Module Updates.  These updates are similar to the updates your home or office computer routinely completes.  These updates are designed to enhance engine or transmission performance. Some updates may improve gas mileage, transmission performance, engine timing and possibly extend engine life.  For a limited time Madison Honda is offering our customers a FREE vehicle computer health check and update.  Just follow the link below to schedule online for this Free service or call us"

Our Hondas are 2002 and 2005 Honda Civics ... not exactly late model, highly computerized vehicles, although I know that there is some computerization there.  Does anyone know if this is something important or just an opportunity for them to do one of their "xxx points checkups" to try to sell us on service or parts that we may not need?  (Although I'm generally positive about Madison Honda compared to other dealers in the area, they did that to us when we went in for our Takata Airbag recall/replacements and when we went to our own mechanic, he debunked most of the service items they had recommended, so I'm leary of that.)

Can you call the dealer and ask which models/years are covered by the update?  No need to identify yourself or volunteer the model/years you have.

My guess that this will either be an improvement or benign. I would do it if I received the notice for my car. They may try to sell you unnecessary procedures, and declining them is a reasonable thing to do. The offers are not an indication of the value of the software updates. I expect this will become more common as software governs an increasing number of functions of cars (and everything else). My job involves keeping software up to date in hundreds of interconnected systems, and it is almost always preferable to update than to leave as-is. The trick is to know when. When in doubt, ask an expert, and if you can't get an expert's answer, do the update.

Tom_Reingold said:

My guess that this will either be an improvement or benign. I would do it if I received the notice for my car. They may try to sell you unnecessary procedures, and declining them is a reasonable thing to do. The offers are not an indication of the value of the software updates. I expect this will become more common as software governs an increasing number of functions of cars (and everything else). My job involves keeping software up to date in hundreds of interconnected systems, and it is almost always preferable to update than to leave as-is. The trick is to know when. When in doubt, ask an expert, and if you can't get an expert's answer, do the update.

Except of course any update to Microsoft Windows - which invariably causes the system to crash multiple times.  Truth is updates might work 95% of the time (and I think that is generous on the high side) but even if they work 99% of the time, when updating software for a car anything less than 100% is not acceptable considering the risk.  

mikescott said:
Except of course any update to Microsoft Windows - which invariably causes the system to crash multiple times.  Truth is updates might work 95% of the time (and I think that is generous on the high side) but even if they work 99% of the time, when updating software for a car anything less than 100% is not acceptable considering the risk.  

I am decidedly not a fan of Microsoft, especially of Windows, but I've updated hundreds of Windows systems using Microsoft Update, and the success rate is over 99%. Of course, 99% is not what I consider to be a good success rate. It ought to be closer to 99.9% or 99.99%.

I'm not convinced car software updates are risky. What have the results been so far? I haven't heard of any bad results. For all we know, testing is adequate, unlike the standard practices at Microsoft. Some industries have rigorous standards that prevent poor results such as the one you cite.

Microsoft's record does not reflect on Honda's.

The only time I've ever heard of a car company modifying the software on a car's drivetrain computer is when there has been a recall or technical service bulletin(TSB) because of some drivability/durability/emissions issue, not just to "upgrade" to improve fuel economy. Unless they have info on a TSB or open recall for your car, I'd be very wary.

IIRC when a change happens to the software that could impact emissions(software to improve fuel economy woild likely fall under that) they have to spend time and money ensuring various government agencies that the cars will still be in compliance emissions and fuel economy wise.  Hence the issues VW is having with getting their plans "fix" the issues through changing software, the feds want proof that it'll actually work before they say OK.

Ford did this with their 6 liter diesel engine trucks from 2005-09. It wasn't a recall and the cost ran a few hundred dollars, it did however improve performance.

Tom_Reingold said:

My guess that this will either be an improvement or benign. I would do it if I received the notice for my car. They may try to sell you unnecessary procedures, and declining them is a reasonable thing to do. The offers are not an indication of the value of the software updates.

^This. 

rowerg said:

Ford did this with their 6 liter diesel engine trucks from 2005-09. It wasn't a recall and the cost ran a few hundred dollars, it did however improve performance.

There were a bunch of TSBs for that though(like this one http://tinyurl.com/hy4tuby) and in my experience with Ford and Mazda(when they were controlled by Ford) they don't send out of warranty customers emails about TSBs.  

Tom_Reingold said:

mikescott said:
Except of course any update to Microsoft Windows - which invariably causes the system to crash multiple times.  Truth is updates might work 95% of the time (and I think that is generous on the high side) but even if they work 99% of the time, when updating software for a car anything less than 100% is not acceptable considering the risk.  

I am decidedly not a fan of Microsoft, especially of Windows, but I've updated hundreds of Windows systems using Microsoft Update, and the success rate is over 99%. Of course, 99% is not what I consider to be a good success rate. It ought to be closer to 99.9% or 99.99%.

I'm not convinced car software updates are risky. What have the results been so far? I haven't heard of any bad results. For all we know, testing is adequate, unlike the standard practices at Microsoft. Some industries have rigorous standards that prevent poor results such as the one you cite.

Microsoft's record does not reflect on Honda's.

I am sure I have done far fewer upgrades than you Tom, but there is no way Microsoft is at 99%.  Our office has 200 people, an internal tech person and a tech support service.  I will stick with my 95% number and while it might not reflect on Honda - it does reflect on updates in general.  Pretty much every update Apple does requires another update.  And as cars become more and more computerized it is likely that the success rate will drop.  And we know that auto manufacturers rarely put safety or honesty first.  

I'm not worried about the software update hurting my car ... just wondering whether it is worth the trouble of driving to Madison and sitting there for an hour (and then having to politely decline the other services that they will no doubt try to sell me.)

That's a good question. You deserve clarification. There are no positive stated benefits, only possible benefits. So at this point, without more information, it's not worth your time.

Tom_Reingold said:

That's a good question. You deserve clarification. There are no positive stated benefits, only possible benefits. So at this point, without more information, it's not worth your time.

Agreed, it honestly sounds like a sales pitch to get you in the door.  Like I said, if it was mandated by the manufacturer there would be some sort of case number referring to a recall or technical bulletin.  

I don't have a problem with what Madison Honda did with the software fix we needed for our Civic. There was a glitch that was causing the 'mute' setting to go on and be stuck.

No matter what I did - and I know a bit about software testing. Random occurrences in software really do suck. It was unpredictable in happening and resolving. They didn't believe me either until I videoed the trouble shooting process I went through. They said they forwarded it to Honda (but I doubt it since I also went online at the showroom to the Honda forum and let them read it for themselves.

Anyway, Honda finally recognized there was a problem after much online scorn and produced a patch.They installed the patch quickly and I was out of there in no more than 30'. Obviously your mileage may vary.

bikefixed said:

I don't have a problem with what Madison Honda did with the software fix we needed for our Civic. There was a glitch that was causing the 'mute' setting to go on and be stuck.

No matter what I did - and I know a bit about software testing. Random occurrences in software really do suck. It was unpredictable in happening and resolving. They didn't believe me either until I videoed the trouble shooting process I went through. They said they forwarded it to Honda (but I doubt it since I also went online at the showroom to the Honda forum and let them read it for themselves.

Anyway, Honda finally recognized there was a problem after much online scorn and produced a patch.They installed the patch quickly and I was out of there in no more than 30'. Obviously your mileage may vary.

That sounds like a "repair" to a problem, for which I would happily go to Madison Honda rather than any other dealer, if my local mechanic directed me to go to Honda for a fix.  

But, as far as I know, our cars are working just fine and it does seem odd that we have only heard about it from the dealer, not from the manufacturer.  I think I will take Joan's advice and give them a call to get more info.

ahh, a different story indeed.  Check with Honda, or maybe look it up online?

is this the update? https://techinfo.honda.com/rjanisis/pubs/web/RJAAI001_TOOLS1.htm

Freeway said:

is this the update? https://techinfo.honda.com/rjanisis/pubs/web/RJAAI001_TOOLS1.htm

They did not provide enough info in the email (see original post above) to know.