Is shirking your duty hereditary

Very disturbing to see at the bottom of this article - https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-aide-stephen-miller-meet-great-grandfather-flunked-naturalization-test-203424658.html - the statement that 

"Donald Trump’s grandfather, she noted, came here in part to avoid the draft in his native Bavaria while “his mother came here as a servant. Imagine if they tried to come today".


tjohn said:
Very disturbing to see at the bottom of this article - https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-aide-stephen-miller-meet-great-grandfather-flunked-naturalization-test-203424658.html - the statement that 
"Donald Trump’s grandfather, she noted, came here in part to avoid the draft in his native Bavaria while “his mother came here as a servant. Imagine if they tried to come today".

 Is it wrong to attempt to migrate to attempt to avoid the draft?


I don;t know the answer.  But, it appears that the statement (quoted above) is implicitly making that argument.  Or, maybe I am reading too much into it.


How does avoiding being the victim of conscription constitute shirking your duty?


terp said:
How does avoiding being the victim of conscription constitute shirking your duty?

 When you cloak yourself in patriotism.


tjohn said:


terp said:
How does avoiding being the victim of conscription constitute shirking your duty?
 When you cloak yourself in patriotism.

 Are the refugees from Syria (who have flatly stated that they are migrating to avoid Syrian conscription) shirking their duty?


tjohn said:


terp said:
How does avoiding being the victim of conscription constitute shirking your duty?
 When you cloak yourself in patriotism.

 What proof do you have that DJT's ancestor cloaked himself in patriotism?


PS I loathe DJT but your cloaking assertion does not appear to have a factual basis.


I think the reference was to DJT. How anybody buys his brand of patriotism is unbelievable. While I don’t necessarily believe someone has to have a military background to be president, people who have served should never be vilified by a Commanded in Chief who is not patriotic in any sense of the word


Before DJT was president, if he was told that he could have an incredible real estate deal in Russia or China IF he renounced his US citizenship, who here would argue that he would not have done that in a heartbeat?


In hindsight, it probably wouldn't have been terrible. The conscription lasted only 3 years. Bavaria, as a part of the (relatively) new German Empire was peaceful, he would have spent the 3 years quartered in a fortress such as Veste Oberhaus or Ingolstadt, and yeah, while being in the army can suck, he would have been fed and housed and paid.

Instead, as a trained barber he moved to America and worked as a barber in New York for a couple of years, then took his savings to Seattle and opened up a brothel.


annielou said:
I think the reference was to DJT. How anybody buys his brand of patriotism is unbelievable. While I don’t necessarily believe someone has to have a military background to be president, people who have served should never be vilified by a Commanded in Chief who is not patriotic in any sense of the word

 So let me get this straight, one of DJT's ancestors (great-grandfather or G2-father) shirked his duty in your opinion.  And, this makes DJT answerable for the shirking (in your eyes) of his ancestor.  IMHO, making current persons answerable for sins of their ancestors does not seem to be based in logic or reality.  

What control do you, or I have, over who are ancestors are?

If you go back to the G2 Generation (assuming no duplicate entries in the various lines), each of us have 16 ancestors (namely, eight ("8") G2-grandfathers and eight ("8") G2-grandmothers).

If you have one "shirker" and one "striver" from this G2 generation, do you balance out the relative good and bad of the one "shirker" and one "striver"?



nohero said:
Before DJT was president, if he was told that he could have an incredible real estate deal in Russia or China IF he renounced his US citizenship, who here would argue that he would not have done that in a heartbeat?

 Speculate much?


RealityForAll said:


nohero said:
Before DJT was president, if he was told that he could have an incredible real estate deal in Russia or China IF he renounced his US citizenship, who here would argue that he would not have done that in a heartbeat?
 Speculate much?

 I'll put you down for "Of course he would have done that."


maybe we can just speculate that a commitment to public service doesn’t appear to run strong in the Trump family. 


nohero said:


RealityForAll said:

nohero said:
Before DJT was president, if he was told that he could have an incredible real estate deal in Russia or China IF he renounced his US citizenship, who here would argue that he would not have done that in a heartbeat?
 Speculate much?
 I'll put you down for "Of course he would have done that."

 I’m going more with a “I’m thinking it over!” response from The Donald. 

https://youtu.be/y6j7l4_VlqU



Of course, this could be one of those tongue-in-cheek threads that I couldn't resist starting.  Still Grandpa Trump would have to be proud.  He ran brothels.  Assuming he ran a high-end brothel, his grand son could even be customer a few generations removed.


tjohn said:
Of course, this could be one of those tongue-in-cheek threads that I couldn't resist starting.  Still Grandpa Trump would have to be proud.  He ran brothels.  Assuming he ran a high-end brothel, his grand son could even be customer a few generations removed.

 As Trump's spokesmodel Rudy G pointed out, Trump has had three beautiful wives, so he wouldn't have to bother with women who would have sex for money.


RealityForAll said:


annielou said:
I think the reference was to DJT. How anybody buys his brand of patriotism is unbelievable. While I don’t necessarily believe someone has to have a military background to be president, people who have served should never be vilified by a Commanded in Chief who is not patriotic in any sense of the word
 So let me get this straight, one of DJT's ancestors (great-grandfather or G2-father) shirked his duty in your opinion.  And, this makes DJT answerable for the shirking (in your eyes) of his ancestor.  IMHO, making current persons answerable for sins of their ancestors does not seem to be based in logic or reality.  

For what it’s worth (“FWIW”), I don’t think you’re getting it straight. It seemed to me that the family history was raised as context to shed light — however lightly — on current policies, priorities and pronouncements that a person is, one way or another, answerable for.


nohero said:


tjohn said:
Of course, this could be one of those tongue-in-cheek threads that I couldn't resist starting.  Still Grandpa Trump would have to be proud.  He ran brothels.  Assuming he ran a high-end brothel, his grand son could even be customer a few generations removed.
 As Trump's spokesmodel Rudy G pointed out, Trump has had three beautiful wives, so he wouldn't have to bother with women who would have sex for money.

 Yes, but a trophy hunter can never have enough trophies.


DaveSchmidt said:


RealityForAll said:

annielou said:
I think the reference was to DJT. How anybody buys his brand of patriotism is unbelievable. While I don’t necessarily believe someone has to have a military background to be president, people who have served should never be vilified by a Commanded in Chief who is not patriotic in any sense of the word
 So let me get this straight, one of DJT's ancestors (great-grandfather or G2-father) shirked his duty in your opinion.  And, this makes DJT answerable for the shirking (in your eyes) of his ancestor.  IMHO, making current persons answerable for sins of their ancestors does not seem to be based in logic or reality.  
For what it’s worth (“FWIW”), I don’t think you’re getting it straight. It seemed to me that the family history was raised as context to shed light — however lightly — on current policies, priorities and pronouncements that a person is, one way or another, answerable for.

 I think RealityForAll ("RFA") knows that, but was trying to derail the thrust of the discussion, as is RFA's wont here.


ml1 said:
maybe we can just speculate that a commitment to public service doesn’t appear to run strong in the Trump family. 

 Agreed.


nohero said:


DaveSchmidt said:

RealityForAll said:

annielou said:
I think the reference was to DJT. How anybody buys his brand of patriotism is unbelievable. While I don’t necessarily believe someone has to have a military background to be president, people who have served should never be vilified by a Commanded in Chief who is not patriotic in any sense of the word
 So let me get this straight, one of DJT's ancestors (great-grandfather or G2-father) shirked his duty in your opinion.  And, this makes DJT answerable for the shirking (in your eyes) of his ancestor.  IMHO, making current persons answerable for sins of their ancestors does not seem to be based in logic or reality.  
For what it’s worth (“FWIW”), I don’t think you’re getting it straight. It seemed to me that the family history was raised as context to shed light — however lightly — on current policies, priorities and pronouncements that a person is, one way or another, answerable for.
 I think RealityForAll ("RFA") knows that, but was trying to derail the thrust of the discussion, as is RFA's wont here.

 Not my intention.  Just challenging, assertions not based in reality.


ridski said:
In hindsight, it probably wouldn't have been terrible. The conscription lasted only 3 years. Bavaria, as a part of the (relatively) new German Empire was peaceful, he would have spent the 3 years quartered in a fortress such as Veste Oberhaus or Ingolstadt, and yeah, while being in the army can suck, he would have been fed and housed and paid.

Instead, as a trained barber he moved to America and worked as a barber in New York for a couple of years, then took his savings to Seattle and opened up a brothel.

 I get such an education from MOL. I didn't know you were an expert on the Bavarian military.

terp said:
How does avoiding being the victim of conscription constitute shirking your duty?

 Sometimes avoiding or resisting conscription is doing one's moral duty. I remember when a whole bunch of us felt exactly that way.


tjohn said:


nohero said:

tjohn said:
Of course, this could be one of those tongue-in-cheek threads that I couldn't resist starting.  Still Grandpa Trump would have to be proud.  He ran brothels.  Assuming he ran a high-end brothel, his grand son could even be customer a few generations removed.
 As Trump's spokesmodel Rudy G pointed out, Trump has had three beautiful wives, so he wouldn't have to bother with women who would have sex for money.
 Yes, but a trophy hunter can never have enough trophies.

 Wait, the women who married Donald Trump were not choosing to have sex for money?

Are you kidding?


ridski said:
In hindsight, it probably wouldn't have been terrible. The conscription lasted only 3 years. Bavaria, as a part of the (relatively) new German Empire was peaceful, he would have spent the 3 years quartered in a fortress such as Veste Oberhaus or Ingolstadt, and yeah, while being in the army can suck, he would have been fed and housed and paid.

Instead, as a trained barber he moved to America and worked as a barber in New York for a couple of years, then took his savings to Seattle and opened up a brothel.

 It was actually the same reason given by my great grandfather for immigrating to the US from Prussia/The German Empire/whatever name they were using that week. 


nohero said:


tjohn said:
Of course, this could be one of those tongue-in-cheek threads that I couldn't resist starting.  Still Grandpa Trump would have to be proud.  He ran brothels.  Assuming he ran a high-end brothel, his grand son could even be customer a few generations removed.
 As Trump's spokesmodel Rudy G pointed out, Trump has had three beautiful wives, so he wouldn't have to bother with women who would have sex for money.

 Unless of course they remind him of his daughter.


My grandparents escaped from Russia during the Revolution. They came from the part that is now Ukraine. My grandfather didn't want to fight in the war, and he didn't believe in the Bolshevik cause. I suspect his primary motivation was to save his own life. Was he shirking his duty? Maybe, but I don't care.

My grandmother left some family there, and in 1989, some of them immigrated here, making my extended family much larger, suddenly. One of my new cousins, whom I will call S, had for many years been bugging her mother, K, that they should move to the US. At some point, S's brother got killed in a military accident in Kazakhstan. As S's younger brother D approached draft age, K suddenly realized that D's life was at risk just by being of draft age, so they moved as fast as possible. Their journey was long and hard, even in 1989, passing through one of those immigrant camps in Italy. I'm glad they did it, even though you could say D shirked his patriotic duty. Everyone is now a US citizen.


LOST said:


ridski said:
In hindsight, it probably wouldn't have been terrible. The conscription lasted only 3 years. Bavaria, as a part of the (relatively) new German Empire was peaceful, he would have spent the 3 years quartered in a fortress such as Veste Oberhaus or Ingolstadt, and yeah, while being in the army can suck, he would have been fed and housed and paid.

Instead, as a trained barber he moved to America and worked as a barber in New York for a couple of years, then took his savings to Seattle and opened up a brothel.
 I get such an education from MOL. I didn't know you were an expert on the Bavarian military.
terp said:
How does avoiding being the victim of conscription constitute shirking your duty?
 Sometimes avoiding or resisting conscription is doing one's moral duty. I remember when a whole bunch of us felt exactly that way.

 Chalk it up to research I did a while ago for a book I never wrote.


The question involving heredity is besides the point. People have had many real fears or beliefs that kept them out of military service over the decades.  DJT was afraid, or saw himself as too valuable to die. Now he blatantly plays the patriotic macho role while others actually risk their lives. 


annielou said:
The question involving heredity is besides the point. People have had many real fears or beliefs that kept them out of military service over the decades.  DJT was afraid, or saw himself as too valuable to die. Now he blatantly plays the patriotic macho role while others actually risk their lives. 

 Agreed.  However, the OP was about DJT somehow atoning, being responsible or having inherited the "shirking" from his great grand father (G2-grandfather).


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