Sarah and the Red Hen

Well first of all I would question the taste of anyone who would eat at a restaurant called The Red Hen.  But then I am reminded that the establishment is a "farm to table" dining establishment.

I am pretty sure it is against the law to criticize them or at least my taste in cuisine would be called to question.  Then it comes to mind that I am fond of "Cracker Barrel " restaurants ,  so I am less than an authority on "fine dining"

However the question is, should she have been asked to leave the establishment.  It is not true that she slipped some samples of cheese and bread into her purse as she exited.

We are a liberal/left community..........some more liberal than others.

Opinions on her expulsion?




"If you talk to the people who escaped Nazi Germany they often say their big regret was not being nicer to government officials defending unspeakable crimes who were eating dinner."

https://twitter.com/LOLGOP/status/1010701190479400960


My only experience with that era came from a neighbor on St. Lawrence Ave in Maplewood.  He was older than me when we met.  Asa teen he fought in the Warsaw Ghetto.  Jerry was the kindest ,  most gentle person you would ever want to know.  Yet when the time came ,  when there was nothing left to lose,  he fought till there were no petrol bombs to be had.  Then he and others that were able escaped through the sewers.   He was interred in Italy before being allowed entry to the States.


On one hand, the owner was 100% within her right to ask sarah to leave. After all, she defended a baker’s right to not bake a wedding cake for a gay couple. So you can’t have it both ways, ie allow one business owner to do what serve who they want but squawk when you’re the one who’s denied service (as Sarah did). 

On the other hand, it’s messed up that this happened and it’s reflective of the hyper-polarized times. I think it’s kind of scary and I also think it’s only a matter of time before somebody is killed. (I would have said “hurt or killed” but hurt already happened with Steve Scalise.) 


author said:
Well first of all I would question the taste of anyone who would eat at a restaurant called The Red Hen.  But then I am reminded that the establishment is a "farm to table" dining establishment.
I am pretty sure it is against the law to criticize them or at least my taste in cuisine would be called to question.  Then it comes to mind that I am fond of "Cracker Barrel " restaurants ,  so I am less than an authority on "fine dining"
However the question is, should she have been asked to leave the establishment.  ...

 There was a suggestion made online that Sarah and her party probably would have been more comfortable at a Cracker Barrel.


nohero said:


author said:
Well first of all I would question the taste of anyone who would eat at a restaurant called The Red Hen.  But then I am reminded that the establishment is a "farm to table" dining establishment.
I am pretty sure it is against the law to criticize them or at least my taste in cuisine would be called to question.  Then it comes to mind that I am fond of "Cracker Barrel " restaurants ,  so I am less than an authority on "fine dining"
However the question is, should she have been asked to leave the establishment.  ...
 There was a suggestion made online that Sarah and her party probably would have been more comfortable at a Cracker Barrel.

Or Chick-Fil-A


nohero said:


author said:
Well first of all I would question the taste of anyone who would eat at a restaurant called The Red Hen.  But then I am reminded that the establishment is a "farm to table" dining establishment.
I am pretty sure it is against the law to criticize them or at least my taste in cuisine would be called to question.  Then it comes to mind that I am fond of "Cracker Barrel " restaurants ,  so I am less than an authority on "fine dining"
However the question is, should she have been asked to leave the establishment.  ...
 There was a suggestion made online that Sarah and her party probably would have been more comfortable at a Cracker Barrel.

 Had she and her party shown up at my favorite "Cracker Barrel" restaurant,while I was there, I would have automatically reached for my trusty tennis balls.  However that one follows the "code of the West which requires all tennis balls be checked at the front door.


Have Penns, Will Travel.


DaveSchmidt said:
Have Penns, Will Travel.

 Glad you didn't have any spell check issues with that post.


I read a tweet about the incident on Friday evening posted by one of the employees (it was a RT.) I checked Yelp and The Red Hen had excellent reviews, 4 stars as I recall. Yelp has been flooded with negative reviews by pro-Trumpers, which has caused Yelp to post this: 

Active Cleanup Alert

This business recently made waves in the news, which often means that people come to this page to post their views on the news.

While we don’t take a stand one way or the other when it comes to these news events, we do work to remove both positive and negative posts that appear to be motivated more by the news coverage itself than the reviewer’s personal consumer experience with the business.

As a result, your posts to this page may be removed as part of our cleanup process beginning Saturday, June 23, 2018, but you should feel free to post your thoughts about the recent media coverage for this business on Yelp Talk at any time.

Got it, thanks!



Worse, Trumpies are placing similarly negative reviews for (and making threats to) other restaurants and cafes named Red Hen which have no connection to the one in VA. One is in Swedesboro, NJ.


Smedley said:
On one hand, the owner was 100% within her right to ask sarah to leave. After all, she defended a baker’s right to not bake a wedding cake for a gay couple. So you can’t have it both ways, ie allow one business owner to do what serve who they want but squawk when you’re the one who’s denied service (as Sarah did). 

Sarah was denied service due to the content of her character. Seems fair. 


Yep, Sarah would be a hit at "Chick-full'a-Lies."  (That is not my original)


My favorite was the waitress wrote out the order slip for drinks. That was before Sarah exited the place. On the right side of the order slip, she wrote,

"86 - Sarah Huckabee Sanders"


If sued, the owner could claim a religious right to discriminate. That would be based on the right to refuse to serve anyone who does not follow the teachings of Jesus ... Not the one about the Cheesemakers, the one about what you do to "..the least of us."


Smedley said:
.... I think it’s kind of scary and I also think it’s only a matter of time before somebody is killed. (I would have said “hurt or killed” but hurt already happened with Steve Scalise.) 

 Someone did get killed in Charlottsville, Virginia. Regarding Scalese, that dumb bastard still supports N.R.A. positions.


I hate Trump. SHS makes me sick. Asking her to leave wasn’t the right thing to do. Comparing it to the cake baker is silly- that was wrong and so was this. This a little less wrong but still wrong.


The staff should have each written a note telling her what they thought of her policies and character and why. At the end of the night, they could have given it to her. They also could have started a conversation with her telling her what they thought. If she chose to leave rather than be confronted, that would have been a better outcome. 


if I owned a business, I surely would turn away human piece of excrement Stephen Miller.  Sanders is more borderline. 

We all have to go with our conscience in these issues. About 15 years ago I was working for a company that tested content and marketing messages for media companies. My boss was pitching Fox News to come on board as a client. As head of east coast client services, I would have had to work with them. I told my boss there was no way I would work on that account. To his credit he told me he’d never ask me to work on an account that violated my principles. I’m not sure what I would have done if he told me I’d be fired if I refused to work on Fox News. I’d like to think I would have quit. In the end we didn’t get the business. 

But in the years since Fox News has become even worse, so I think it more than vindicates my stance all those years ago. 


conandrob240 said:
I hate Trump. SHS makes me sick. Asking her to leave wasn’t the right thing to do. Comparing it to the cake baker is silly- that was wrong and so was this. This a little less wrong but still wrong.


 I don't think people are saying they're right to do so, they're just trying to point out the hypocrisy of the right to fight tooth and nail for the right to not serve people, and then they cry foul when it happens to them.


ml1 said:
if I owned a business, I surely would turn away human piece of excrement Stephen Miller.  Sanders is more borderline. 
We all have to go with our conscience in these issues. 

Isn’t that the rationale behind the Colorado cake baker’s and the Arizona Walgreens pharmacist’s refusals? What distinguishes your stand from theirs?

(I ask because I’m interested in how you see it, not because I want to make my own points.)


ml1 said:
if I owned a business, I surely would turn away human piece of excrement Stephen Miller.  Sanders is more borderline. 
We all have to go with our conscience in these issues. About 15 years ago I was working for a company that tested content and marketing messages for media companies. My boss was pitching Fox News to come on board as a client. As head of east coast client services, I would have had to work with them. I told my boss there was no way I would work on that account. To his credit he told me he’d never ask me to work on an account that violated my principles. I’m not sure what I would have done if he told me I’d be fired if I refused to work on Fox News. I’d like to think I would have quit. In the end we didn’t get the business. 
But in the years since Fox News has become even worse, so I think it more than vindicates my stance all those years ago. 

 Maybe if you'd taken the job and worked with them,  Rachel Maddow would now be complaining about the leftist views at Fox!  blank stare 


DaveSchmidt said:


ml1 said:
if I owned a business, I surely would turn away human piece of excrement Stephen Miller.  Sanders is more borderline. 
We all have to go with our conscience in these issues. 
Isn’t that the rationale behind the Colorado cake baker’s and the Arizona Walgreens pharmacist’s refusals? What distinguishes your stand from theirs?
(I ask because I’m interested in how you see it, not because I want to make my own points.)

 I like conandrob240's idea of talking to her. My reaction, when I'm in front of my TV is more primitive, an overwhelming urge to punch her,  but in person, I always feel like taking a shot at persuading someone.

I've been at protests and if someone comes up to argue that I need to get a life, I always attempt to engage them in conversation. I'll try anything, humor, civility, charm, whatever I think might leave the person with a teensy doubt. Maybe I'm just plain over confident.

Its the Charlie Brown philosophy. "How can we lose when we're so sincere?"


@DaveSchmidt One distinction would be that the ml1's company was willing to provide the service, and apparently didn't need ml1 to do so, so arguably Fox News wasn't being put at any disadvantage or inconvenience.

At media companies back in the day, it wasn't uncommon for advertising sales people to say they wouldn't want to work with tobacco companies. While I respected that position, I always found it a little weak, as in many cases their company had already benefitted significantly from tobacco clients in the past and without those revenues (which were substantial and larger than most other clients), the company might not have been in the position to grow and to hire the person in the first place.

But I do believe that once you accept someone as a customer or client, you give them 100%, so I would not agree with the position of a restaurant allowing the wait staff to make a statement to SHS or to give her a "note" after the meal. Once you invite them in and take the money, you should treat them as you would anyone else. 


IMO, the Red Hen was well within its rights to refuse service to someone they don't like.  I do agree with Dave Schmidt that it does cause somewhat of a dilemma if you are against others being refused service. 

I think there are a few separate issues here:

  • Is the business offering a public good?  This is like a counter at an airport, train station, etc.  In this case, you have a pretty good argument that the business has relinquished its right of refusal as it offering a service that is a public good.
  • Has the business already produced a good, and is refusing to sell to someone for reason of consciousness, distaste, etc.  This is where I think it gets interesting and you could make a reasonable argument for right of refusal or compelling the business to sell the good. 
  • Does the business have to produce something specifically for the client?  In the cake case, is there a customization that goes against the consciousness of the business owner?  In this case, I do think the business has a right to refuse producing something they might find objectionable. 

The Red Hen case I think falls between 2 and 3.  Most of the food prep is already done, but your wait staff needs to interact with the party for an extended period of time. 

I'm not saying it was a good idea necessarily, but well within their rights IMO. 

As an aside, I used to work for a company that did web/mobile projects for big companies.  They had many clients, but 2 were interesting as part of this discussion.  

One was AEI:  the employees of my company were by and large 20 something NY liberals.   Shockingly, AEI was one of the favorite clients.  They would all say "They are surprisingly nice".  

At the time they also had Keith Olberman.  I think this was shortly after his break with MSNBC and he was on a smaller outlet.  His account was a big pain in the ***.  

Anyhoo, the point isn't to say that conservatives are going to be easier to work with.  It's more of a "don't judge the book by it's cover".  There are some good people that you may disagree with politically, and some not so great people you may tend to agree with politically.  Perhaps we can learn something from one another through dialog.  


Nah

If you open a restaurant to feed people- then feed people. If you build houses to house people then house people. If you say you're a baker and you sell what you bake- then sell what you bake. If you're going to turn anybody away from your establishment then put a chalkboard up outside with a constantly updated list of who can and who can't come in - and then take your licks.  

I don't have nearly enough faith in Americans to let them off the hook regarding who is allowed and who isn't.  

Been there done that- still doing it.


SHS doesn't seem to be claiming that the restaurant had an obligation to serve her, but rather that she wasn't treated "respectfully." Which, of course, is vague and doesn't say anything - like most of her work.



The incident has galvanized the body politic.  Any objective observer can see that the amount of support Sarah has received is about equal to those who would prefer the ceiling  of the place had collapsed on her.   I personally would have preferred that she be allowed to dine while all the other

diners left.

She is not only a spokesmen but also a symbol of this administration.

I very much hope we lose our complacency and do away with the thought that 2020 will be a cakewalk for a return to the caring government that means so much to us

Gird your loins and realize that nothing worth doing comes easy.


The battle cry will be "Remember the Red Hen"..........we'll have to work on that one.




DaveSchmidt said:


ml1 said:
if I owned a business, I surely would turn away human piece of excrement Stephen Miller.  Sanders is more borderline. 
We all have to go with our conscience in these issues. 
Isn’t that the rationale behind the Colorado cake baker’s and the Arizona Walgreens pharmacist’s refusals? What distinguishes your stand from theirs?
(I ask because I’m interested in how you see it, not because I want to make my own points.)

If I turned away Miller because he's Jewish, that would be wrong. If I turn him away for stuff he does professionally, that's OK.  


The breakdown of civility is as big an issue to me as the substantive issues.  I'm not citing any hard and fast rules.  Just try to be nice, accommodating civilized to people even if you disagree with their politics.   Our normal everyday interactions are not saturated with politics despite the efforts of the media mouthpieces to suggest we are in a civil war.


there’s a difference between “within their rights” and what was the right thing to do. 


Asking her to leave did nothing. Having the staff that felt wronged by her (for example, for their disappointment over a gay rights issue), tell her their thoughts may have stuck with her or at least made the story about that.



ml1 said:

If I turned away Miller because he's Jewish, that would be wrong. If I turn him away for stuff he does professionally, that's OK.  

Thanks. And thanks to the others, too, who addressed the question.


I've been reading this thread trying to come up with a play on the saying about have your cake and eating it,


Can you support one person not having the right to a cake and another having cake wherever she wishes?


And then SHS used her official White House Twitter account to blast this restaurant. Followed by millions of people ,she put the restaurant  at risk of being attacked both online and perhaps in real life. This was a violation of all ethics laws and she probably knew it but it was so much better for her to use that her own personal Twitter.  And we, the American taxpayer, pay for it


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