Russian Propaganda machine

paulsurovell said:

No such thing as "no biggie" in a nuclear complex, but I've seen some Western reports that said "Russia bombed a nuclear reactor". Reuters set the record straight:

Russia BOMBED a nuclear power plant. They DAMAGED a building that was not part of one of the reactors.

It's call dumb luck.


jamie said:

Ok, that's all for now.  For me what is key is how the state sponsored news is portraying the state of the world at the moment.  Things will never change unless change starts from within.  As long as Putin controls the narrative and suppresses demonstrations, he will do whatever he likes.

I had mentioned it above - this is how every articles ends and is the reason for the current military action.  NATO is NOT mentioned.  It was a request from the Dombass republics - period.  But if you want to frame it according to you POV - please go ahead.

On February 21, Vladimir Putin , in response to the requests of the Donbass republics, signed decrees recognizing the sovereignty of the LPR and the DPR . Early on the morning of February 24, Russia launched a military special operation to demilitarize Ukraine . According to the Ministry of Defense, the Armed Forces only strike at military infrastructure and Ukrainian troops. There are casualties on both sides.

In response , the US , EU countries and several other states have imposed new sanctions against Moscow . According to the presidential press secretary Dmitry Peskov , the restrictions of the West are very serious, but Russia was preparing for them in advance.

I've pointed out that the scale of Putin's invasion has exceeded the mandate given by parliament and the security council. There has been at least one member who has questioned this.

The Russian demands are explicitly stated here by Lavrov and they include "neutral status" for Ukraine, which is equivalent to No NATO (this is from TASS, obviously not a Western source) https://tass.com/politics/1417359

Ukraine appears to be moving toward accepting a neutral status ('non-NATO") -- graphic 2


tjohn said:

paulsurovell said:

 Our mainstream media is monolithic, 



What mainstream media?  Not the 50+% of Americans who have FOX or OAN a their primary news source.

Outside the mainstream.


Paul,

You seem to be incapable of answering my simple question.

" at what point is it appropriate to get involved in the affairs of other nations? When they are fighting each other? When there is a massive refugee problem? When there is ethnic-cleansing underway?

"


tjohn said:

Paul,

You seem to be incapable of answering my simple question.

" at what point is it appropriate to get involved in the affairs of other nations? When they are fighting each other? When there is a massive refugee problem? When there is ethnic-cleansing underway?

"

Hmm, wonder what Paul would have thought of a US entry into WWII (or otherwise trying to disrupt German aspirations) prior to Dec. 7, 1941.


Or French meddling in Great Britain's internal affairs.  Why, we'd still be speaking the Queen's English.


Steve said:

Hmm, wonder what Paul would have thought of a US entry into WWII (or otherwise trying to disrupt German aspirations) prior to Dec. 7, 1941.

The Sudetenland should never have been part of Czechoslovakia. Once it was recognized as part of Germany, there would be peace in our time.


References to past events notwithstanding, it should be noted that the history of Russia didn't begin with the disintegration of the USSR.  Russia has a long history of being a messianic power with a history of vassalizing (or fighting) neighboring nations.  This world view is alive and well in Putin's Russia.  It would be alive and well, I think, in any leader of Russia although if Russia still had a somewhat democratic government with free and fair elections, I rather doubt that we would be dealing with an invasion of Ukraine right now.

You would think from some comments here that Russia is Red Riding Hood and NATO is the Big Bad Wolf.


tjohn said:

References to past events notwithstanding, it should be noted that the history of Russia didn't begin with the disintegration of the USSR.  Russia has a long history of being a messianic power with a history of vassalizing (or fighting) neighboring nations.  This world view is alive and well in Putin's Russia.  It would be alive and well, I think, in any leader of Russia although if Russia still had a somewhat democratic government with free and fair elections, I rather doubt that we would be dealing with an invasion of Ukraine right now.

You would think from some comments here that Russia is Red Riding Hood and NATO is the Big Bad Wolf.

Putin has long been pushing the idea of the historical "oneness" of Russia and Ukraine. This is from last summer:

Article by Vladimir Putin ”On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians“ • President of Russia (kremlin.ru)

It's naive to believe that giving him a little piece of Ukraine will make him happy.


paulsurovell said:

Here's an anecdotal report from a Greek national in Mariupol which backs this theory:

Mr. Kiouranas of Mariupol sure is getting a lot of mileage from a resident of Maplewood, N.J. The power of social media.


Paul - from your responses, I see that you believe the neo-nazi elements are very strong and it seems to give justification to Putin's invasion to some degree. 

Can you explain how Putin will know when the country is properly denazified?  How close are we?

Are the reports on hitting non-military targets fake?  


Ministry of Defense: Ukraine is trying to hide traces of work with plague pathogens

https://ria.ru/20220307/zabolevaniya-1777054038.html

Ukraine, in violation of international law, has been working to enhance the pathogenic properties of microbes, said Igor Kirillov, head of the radiation, chemical and biological defense forces of the Russian Armed Forces.

“The curators from the Pentagon understand that if these collections (of pathogenic microbes. - Ed.) get to Russian experts, then with a high degree of probability a violation by Ukraine and the United States of the Convention on the Prohibition of Biological and Toxin Weapons will be confirmed. Namely, work on enhancing the pathogenic properties of microorganisms using synthetic biology methods," he said.


Putin called on the EU to contribute to saving people and put pressure on Kyiv

https://ria.ru/20220307/ukraina-1777045230.html

Vladimir Putin held telephone conversations with European Council President Charles Michel and called on the EU to force the Kiev authorities to respect humanitarian law, the Kremlin press service reported .

Thus, the president outlined Russia 's position in connection with a special military operation to protect the republics of Donbass, in addition, the interlocutors discussed humanitarian issues in detail.

As Putin stressed, the Russian military is taking all possible measures to save the lives of civilians, but the main threat comes from nationalist formations, which, like terrorists, hide behind the civilian population.


Sounds like Putin is trying to take all humanitarian steps possible based on state sponsored media.  But it seems like the resistance is thwarting his attempts.

Putin informed Modi about the introduction of a regime of silence in Ukraine

https://ria.ru/20220307/ukraina-1777035083.html?in=t

Russian President Vladimir Putin informed Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi about the introduction of a regime of silence and the opening of humanitarian corridors in Ukraine, the Kremlin press service reports.

It is noted that Putin had a telephone conversation with Modi. They continued to discuss the situation in connection with the conduct of a special military operation to protect the Donbass, and, in particular, the issues of the evacuation of Indian citizens.

"Vladimir Putin informed the Prime Minister of India that given the aggravation of the humanitarian situation, the Russian Armed Forces announced the introduction of a "silence regime" today and the opening of humanitarian corridors. At the same time, nationalist formations continue to obstruct the withdrawal of civilians, including foreign citizens, from the regions military operations, using brute force and resorting to various kinds of provocations.


paulsurovell said:

No such thing as "no biggie" in a nuclear complex, but I've seen some Western reports that said "Russia bombed a nuclear reactor". Reuters set the record straight:

Aside from the fire, which was at the training facility, The Guardian reported that Russian shelling damaged a walkway between two reactors, and The Times reported that the head of the company that runs Ukraine’s nuclear facilities said a Russian shell hit a reactor (without damage).

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/06/ukraine-zaporizhzhia-nuclear-plant-staff-under-russian-orders

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/04/science/ukraine-nuclear-power-plant.html

(“Russia bombed a nuclear reactor” generates no results on DuckDuckGo and only an op-ed from the Financial Oversight and Management Board for Puerto Rico on Google.)


tjohn said:

Paul,

You seem to be incapable of answering my simple question.

" at what point is it appropriate to get involved in the affairs of other nations? When they are fighting each other? When there is a massive refugee problem? When there is ethnic-cleansing underway?

"

What does "get involved in the affairs of other nations" mean? 

 

paulsurovell said:

tjohn said:

Paul,

You seem to be incapable of answering my simple question.

" at what point is it appropriate to get involved in the affairs of other nations? When they are fighting each other? When there is a massive refugee problem? When there is ethnic-cleansing underway?

"

What does "get involved in the affairs of other nations" mean? 

 

Gee, I don't know.  Impose sanctions maybe?  Provide weapons to one of the sides?  Apply military force?

Now, please focus on the question.


jamie said:

Sounds like Putin is trying to take all humanitarian steps possible based on state sponsored media.  But it seems like the resistance is thwarting his attempts.

Putin informed Modi about the introduction of a regime of silence in Ukraine

https://ria.ru/20220307/ukraina-1777035083.html?in=t

Russian President Vladimir Putin informed Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi about the introduction of a regime of silence and the opening of humanitarian corridors in Ukraine, the Kremlin press service reports.

It is noted that Putin had a telephone conversation with Modi. They continued to discuss the situation in connection with the conduct of a special military operation to protect the Donbass, and, in particular, the issues of the evacuation of Indian citizens.

"Vladimir Putin informed the Prime Minister of India that given the aggravation of the humanitarian situation, the Russian Armed Forces announced the introduction of a "silence regime" today and the opening of humanitarian corridors. At the same time, nationalist formations continue to obstruct the withdrawal of civilians, including foreign citizens, from the regions military operations, using brute force and resorting to various kinds of provocations.

Are neo-nazis capable of forcing people to be human shields?


paulsurovell said:

Are neo-nazis capable of forcing people to be human shields?

What an odd whataboutism.  My answer - um, I suppose.  Anyone can force anyone to do anything with proper force - do you agree with this?

What is the current level of denazification? 50%?  Will Vlad keep going until it reaches 0%?  How is he able to measure it?


tjohn said:

Gee, I don't know.  Impose sanctions maybe?  Provide weapons to one of the sides?  Apply military force?

Now, please focus on the question.

My position is that the US should call for a neutral Ukraine that is not in NATO and an autonomous Donbas. That would end the war and make the other measures you list irrelevant. Unfortunately, following the other strategies will consign Ukraine to more death and devastation and an endless Afghan-style insurrection.

The statement by the Ukrainian negotiator today is hopefully a recognition of this.

The sanctions, by the way, are driving Russia into China's hands (confirmed by Wang this morning) and are counterproductive.


tjohn said:

paulsurovell said:

tjohn said:

Paul,

You seem to be incapable of answering my simple question.

" at what point is it appropriate to get involved in the affairs of other nations? When they are fighting each other? When there is a massive refugee problem? When there is ethnic-cleansing underway?

"

What does "get involved in the affairs of other nations" mean? 

 

Gee, I don't know.  Impose sanctions maybe?  Provide weapons to one of the sides?  Apply military force?

Now, please focus on the question.

I think you received the answer that confirms your impression.


jamie said:

What an odd whataboutism.  My answer - um, I suppose.  Anyone can force anyone to do anything with proper force - do you agree with this?

What is the current level of denazification? 50%?  Will Vlad keep going until it reaches 0%?  How is he able to measure it?

I think it's a question that one must ask when asked to speculate/interpret the failure of the human corridors in the absence of evidence. And I think you're evading the question by calling it "whataboutism".


paulsurovell said:

My position is that the US should call for a neutral Ukraine that is not in NATO and an autonomous Donbas. That would end the war and make the other measures you list irrelevant. Unfortunately, following the other strategies will consign Ukraine to more death and devastation and an endless Afghan-style insurrection.

Nothing that has taken place to date, nor that Putin has stated, supports this. The United States should not be telling Ukraine how to surrender, especially since Russia's response to that "offer" would be a demand for more concessions.


tjohn said:

paulsurovell said:

tjohn said:

Paul,

You seem to be incapable of answering my simple question.

" at what point is it appropriate to get involved in the affairs of other nations? When they are fighting each other? When there is a massive refugee problem? When there is ethnic-cleansing underway?

"

What does "get involved in the affairs of other nations" mean? 

 

Gee, I don't know.  Impose sanctions maybe?  Provide weapons to one of the sides?  Apply military force?

Now, please focus on the question.

So, in other words, you don't have an answer for this question.  Do you even have a framework?  Do you have any principles?  Or is this just a great power thing and you think NATO made a bad call on expanding?  

If it is just a great power thing, then might makes right and we can all understand that whether or not we agree.


paulsurovell said:

I think it's a question that one must ask when asked to speculate/interpret the failure of the human corridors in the absence of evidence. And I think you're evading the question by calling it "whataboutism".

ok, maybe not whataboutism - but an absolutely silly retort to Vlad's claims - other then, maybe he's right.  

Can you answer my other question - might be a little more relevant to when we can figure out how far along Vlad's goals are.  What is the current level of denazification? 50%? Will Vlad keep going until it reaches 0%? How is he able to measure it?


paulsurovell said:

My position is that the US should call for a neutral Ukraine that is not in NATO and an autonomous Donbas. That would end the war and make the other measures you list irrelevant. Unfortunately, following the other strategies will consign Ukraine to more death and devastation and an endless Afghan-style insurrection.

The statement by the Ukrainian negotiator today is hopefully a recognition of this.

The sanctions, by the way, are driving Russia into China's hands (confirmed by Wang this morning) and are counterproductive.

That ship sailed a couple of weeks ago.  This wasn't Putin's opening gambit back when he thought he could huff and puff and blow the house down.  I figured that Ukraine should have cut its losses before the invasion and ceded parts of the Donbas and Crimea, but the invasion changes that calculus.


Medinsky said that the expectations from the negotiations with Ukraine did not materialize

"The discussion continued on political and military aspects, but it is not going well. It is too early to talk about something positive. We arrived with a large set of documents, took specific agreements, projects and proposals, we hoped that today, in terms of those items on which We would have already agreed in principle, it would be possible to sign at least a protocol, but the Ukrainian side took all these documents home for study, they could not sign something on the spot.

------------------------------

Paul - do you have details of with the docs were Russia brought over?  From state media - it sounds like Russia is doing everything they can to come to a resolution.  Apart from stopping the bombing campaign.


At this point, I think Ukraine has some incentive to fight on.  Russia would like some way out of this war which has proved to be more difficult than expected.  On the other hand, Russia won't accept humiliation.


 

DaveSchmidt said:

paulsurovell said:

No such thing as "no biggie" in a nuclear complex, but I've seen some Western reports that said "Russia bombed a nuclear reactor". Reuters set the record straight:

Aside from the fire, which was at the training facility, The Guardian reported that Russian shelling damaged a walkway between two reactors, and The Times reported that the head of the company that runs Ukraine’s nuclear facilities said a Russian shell hit a reactor (without damage).

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/06/ukraine-zaporizhzhia-nuclear-plant-staff-under-russian-orders

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/04/science/ukraine-nuclear-power-plant.html

(“Russia bombed a nuclear reactor” generates no results on DuckDuckGo and only an op-ed from the Financial Oversight and Management Board for Puerto Rico on Google.)

Fair criticism. More accurate choice of language would have been "attacks nuclear plant" which is misleading. I'm pretty sure that most people think that attacking a nuclear plant involves attacking the reactor.

On the other hand, the initial reporting that failed to differentiate between the training center and the plant and led many to believe that Russia "bombed" the plant.


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