Russian Propaganda machine

Paul - when there are reports of  "increases in what we call long-range fires, bombardments, rocket attacks, artillery, as well as missile strikes, and we do assess that these strikes are hitting civilian targets, infrastructure, residential areas."

Do you think these are accidents and that they're just off on missing their military targets?  Or are these reports anti-Putin propaganda?


paulsurovell said:

Fair criticism. More accurate choice of language would have been "attacks nuclear plant" which is misleading. I'm pretty sure that most people think that attacking a nuclear plant involves attacking the reactor.

On the other hand, the initial reporting that failed to differentiate between the training center and the plant and led many to believe that Russia "bombed" the plant.

Is the facility now under Russian control or not?


jamie said:

Medinsky said that the expectations from the negotiations with Ukraine did not materialize

"The discussion continued on political and military aspects, but it is not going well. It is too early to talk about something positive. We arrived with a large set of documents, took specific agreements, projects and proposals, we hoped that today, in terms of those items on which We would have already agreed in principle, it would be possible to sign at least a protocol, but the Ukrainian side took all these documents home for study, they could not sign something on the spot.

------------------------------

Paul - do you have details of with the docs were Russia brought over?  From state media - it sounds like Russia is doing everything they can to come to a resolution.  Apart from stopping the bombing campaign.

No. I doubt that anyone beyond the negotiators and higher up knows.


Zelensky told ABC News that Putin "is living in an informational bubble." 

“When the Kremlin says the three conditions to end the war that you must give up joining NATO, recognizing Crimea as part of Russia and recognize the independence of those two separatist regions [the Donbas and Luhansk] in the East, to Vladimir Putin, who will get this message from you, you say it’s a nonstarter, not willing to those three conditions right now,” anchor David Muir asked Zelensky in a clip posted on Twitter by ABC News on Monday."

Zelensky responded:

The question is more difficult than simply acknowledging them. This is another ultimatum. We’re not prepared for ultimatums. We have the possible solution, resolution for these three items. What needs to be done is for President Putin to stop talking, start the dialogue, instead of living in the informational bubble without oxygen. I think that’s where he is. He is in this bubble. He’s getting this information and you don’t know how realistic that information is that he’s getting.

https://www.mediaite.com/news/zelensky-tells-abc-he-has-questions-about-putins-intel-hes-in-this-bubble-and-you-dont-know-if-hes-getting-realistic-info/


paulsurovell said:

Fair criticism. More accurate choice of language would have been "attacks nuclear plant" which is misleading. I'm pretty sure that most people think that attacking a nuclear plant involves attacking the reactor.

On the other hand, the initial reporting that failed to differentiate between the training center and the plant and led many to believe that Russia "bombed" the plant.

Paul, I think you must know jack sh*t about the dangers inherent in the regular operations of a nuclear plant, let alone if that plant is being attacked, bombed, or otherwise subject to destructive forces against the containment building, ancillary equipment, fuel areas, pumps, etc.

If you did, you wouldn't try to make such a silly distinction. To repeat:

nohero said:

Russia BOMBED a nuclear power plant. They DAMAGED a building that was not part of one of the reactors.

It's call dumb luck.


cramer said:

Zelensky told ABC News that Putin "is living in an informational bubble." 

“When the Kremlin says the three conditions to end the war that you must give up joining NATO, recognizing Crimea as part of Russia and recognize the independence of those two separatist regions [the Donbas and Luhansk] in the East, to Vladimir Putin, who will get this message from you, you say it’s a nonstarter, not willing to those three conditions right now,” anchor David Muir asked Zelensky in a clip posted on Twitter by ABC News on Monday."

Zelensky responded:

The question is more difficult than simply acknowledging them. This is another ultimatum. We’re not prepared for ultimatums. We have the possible solution, resolution for these three items. What needs to be done is for President Putin to stop talking, start the dialogue, instead of living in the informational bubble without oxygen. I think that’s where he is. He is in this bubble. He’s getting this information and you don’t know how realistic that information is that he’s getting.

https://www.mediaite.com/news/zelensky-tells-abc-he-has-questions-abo"ut-putins-intel-hes-in-this-bubble-and-you-dont-know-if-hes-getting-realistic-info/

David Muir says "you say it's a nonstarter" but Zelensky says "We have the possible solution, resolution for these three items". Will this be reported on the evening news?


If only people would understand that it was necessary to start a war in Ukraine in order to prevent a war in Ukraine. 


Paul like to use his talking points for why there's a war - over the actual words of Putin and Company.


paulsurovell said:

cramer said:

Zelensky told ABC News that Putin "is living in an informational bubble." 

“When the Kremlin says the three conditions to end the war that you must give up joining NATO, recognizing Crimea as part of Russia and recognize the independence of those two separatist regions [the Donbas and Luhansk] in the East, to Vladimir Putin, who will get this message from you, you say it’s a nonstarter, not willing to those three conditions right now,” anchor David Muir asked Zelensky in a clip posted on Twitter by ABC News on Monday."

Zelensky responded:

The question is more difficult than simply acknowledging them. This is another ultimatum. We’re not prepared for ultimatums. We have the possible solution, resolution for these three items. What needs to be done is for President Putin to stop talking, start the dialogue, instead of living in the informational bubble without oxygen. I think that’s where he is. He is in this bubble. He’s getting this information and you don’t know how realistic that information is that he’s getting.

https://www.mediaite.com/news/zelensky-tells-abc-he-has-questions-abo"ut-putins-intel-hes-in-this-bubble-and-you-dont-know-if-hes-getting-realistic-info/

David Muir says "you say it's a nonstarter" but Zelensky says "We have the possible solution, resolution for these three items". Will this be reported on the evening news?


nohero said:

paulsurovell said:

Fair criticism. More accurate choice of language would have been "attacks nuclear plant" which is misleading. I'm pretty sure that most people think that attacking a nuclear plant involves attacking the reactor.

On the other hand, the initial reporting that failed to differentiate between the training center and the plant and led many to believe that Russia "bombed" the plant.

Paul, I think you must know jack sh*t about the dangers inherent in the regular operations of a nuclear plant, let alone if that plant is being attacked, bombed, or otherwise subject to destructive forces against the containment building, ancillary equipment, fuel areas, pumps, etc.

If you did, you wouldn't try to make such a silly distinction. To repeat:

nohero said:

Russia BOMBED a nuclear power plant. They DAMAGED a building that was not part of one of the reactors.

It's call dumb luck.

The word "bombed" implies that Russia dropped a bomb from an airplane on the nuclear power plant. That didn't happen. 


cramer said:

paulsurovell said:

cramer said:

Zelensky told ABC News that Putin "is living in an informational bubble." 

“When the Kremlin says the three conditions to end the war that you must give up joining NATO, recognizing Crimea as part of Russia and recognize the independence of those two separatist regions [the Donbas and Luhansk] in the East, to Vladimir Putin, who will get this message from you, you say it’s a nonstarter, not willing to those three conditions right now,” anchor David Muir asked Zelensky in a clip posted on Twitter by ABC News on Monday."

Zelensky responded:

The question is more difficult than simply acknowledging them. This is another ultimatum. We’re not prepared for ultimatums. We have the possible solution, resolution for these three items. What needs to be done is for President Putin to stop talking, start the dialogue, instead of living in the informational bubble without oxygen. I think that’s where he is. He is in this bubble. He’s getting this information and you don’t know how realistic that information is that he’s getting.

https://www.mediaite.com/news/zelensky-tells-abc-he-has-questions-abo"ut-putins-intel-hes-in-this-bubble-and-you-dont-know-if-hes-getting-realistic-info/

David Muir says "you say it's a nonstarter" but Zelensky says "We have the possible solution, resolution for these three items". Will this be reported on the evening news?

Excellent. Thanks.


paulsurovell said:

The word "bombed" implies that Russia dropped a bomb from an airplane on the nuclear power plant. That didn't happen. 

I think less weaselly people would understand "bombed" in this context to mean the use of a loosely targeted explosive munition around a super sensitive target.


jamie said:

Paul like to use his talking points for why there's a war - over the actual words of Putin and Company.

I quoted Lavrov. Here it is again:


ok, so when the news headline is Bombardments are increasing on major cities - is this correct?  Or are they not bombardments with if they don't come from planes?   Thanks for correcting the syntax of the "invasion".

Man - there must be more nazis then we realized in these "civilian" sectors.


tjohn said:

I think less weaselly people would understand "bombed" in this context to mean the use of a loosely targeted explosive munition around a super sensitive target.

That also didn't happen.


paulsurovell said:

Fair criticism. More accurate choice of language would have been "attacks nuclear plant" which is misleading. I'm pretty sure that most people think that attacking a nuclear plant involves attacking the reactor.

Reports of shells that hit or landed between reactors notwithstanding. Attacks on perimeters can apparently get a little messy.


jamie said:

Is the facility now under Russian control or not?

That's what the IAEA says.


So, what would the proper verbiage be regarding the attacks on Ukrainian cities - missile attacks?  Shelling?    Anything but bombing?


DaveSchmidt said:

paulsurovell said:

Fair criticism. More accurate choice of language would have been "attacks nuclear plant" which is misleading. I'm pretty sure that most people think that attacking a nuclear plant involves attacking the reactor.

Reports of shells that hit or landed between reactors notwithstanding. Attacks on perimeters can apparently get a little messy.

I think Paul has an uninformed view of what is meant by the term "Nuclear Power Plant". It's more than just the reactor containment vessel.


paulsurovell said:

jamie said:

Is the facility now under Russian control or not?

That's what the IAEA says.

Would Russian control over all nuclear plants be a fair part of demilitarization?  


jamie said:

paulsurovell said:

jamie said:

Is the facility now under Russian control or not?

That's what the IAEA says.

Would Russian control over all nuclear plants be a fair part of demilitarization?  

I had a sidebar chat with Paul on this point.  He said, "Yes, if the operators are Nazis."


Paul - I think you missed answering this one:

What is the current level of denazification? 50%?  Will Vlad keep going until it reaches 0%? How is he able to measure it?


To make it more confusing, some Germans, apparently having some expertise in the matter, are claiming that saying Nazis are in control of Ukraine is wildly inaccurate.


tjohn said:

To make it more confusing, some Germans, apparently having some expertise in the matter, are claiming that saying Nazis are in control of Ukraine is wildly inaccurate.

It's mainly in the areas that Russia is trying to carry out humanitarian missions.   ohh


jamie said:

ok, so when the news headline is Bombardments are increasing on major cities - is this correct?  Or are they not bombardments with if they don't come from planes?   Thanks for correcting the syntax of the "invasion".

Man - there must be more nazis then we realized in these "civilian" sectors.

"Bombardments" doesn't have the same connotation as "bombing".

The number of neo-nazis in the Ukraine military are a small minority of the total and don't account for most of the fighting. Mariupol might be different.


paulsurovell said:

"Bombardments" doesn't have the same connotation as "bombing".

The number of neo-nazis in the Ukraine military are a small minority of the total and don't account for most of the fighting. Mariupol might be different.

so - how does Vlad know when he's accomplished one of his primary directives?


jamie said:

Paul - I think you missed answering this one:

What is the current level of denazification? 50%?  Will Vlad keep going until it reaches 0%? How is he able to measure it?

I thought I answered that your guess is as good as mine. On all three questions.


I guess there were a lot of Nazis in this city, so it was bombarded, or bombed, or whatever word one thinks is appropriate to describe causing a lot of explosions, damage and deaths.


paulsurovell said:

"Bombardments" doesn't have the same connotation as "bombing".

Depends on which end of the bombing/bombardment one happens to be.


paulsurovell said:

"Bombardments" doesn't have the same connotation as "bombing".

That is so true.  I have talked to people who prefer bombs to shelling and some who prefer shelling to bombs.


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