The Election Aftermath - Take 2, 2024 Edition
drummerboy said:
Trump's coming loss today (fingers crossed) will mark the official start of 2024 election denialism. Trump has been setting the stage rhetorically by already raising allegations of cheating. MAGA has been working since 2021 to install denialists and other crackpots in official election positions across the country, ready to deny certification if the vote goes to Harris, and they've probably got other tricks up their sleeves to muck up the results.. The RNC has more than 50 million dollars stockpiled for court challenges. Sporadic acts of violence have been occurring during the early voting period. Many states have had to add police protection to protect their poll workers.
The fun is just getting ready to start.
don’t forget he will be sentenced on November 26…. So he might very well camp out in front of the White House claiming they won’t give him the keys to get inside.
No matter what happens today, it's important to keep things in perspective.
drummerboy said:
Trump's coming loss today (fingers crossed) will mark the official start of 2024 election denialism. Trump has been setting the stage rhetorically by already raising allegations of cheating. MAGA has been working since 2021 to install denialists and other crackpots in official election positions across the country, ready to deny certification if the vote goes to Harris, and they've probably got other tricks up their sleeves to muck up the results.. The RNC has more than 50 million dollars stockpiled for court challenges. Sporadic acts of violence have been occurring during the early voting period. Many states have had to add police protection to protect their poll workers.
The fun is just getting ready to start.
Having fun yet dummy?
dave said:
Fun begins on November 26.
it’s a real head scratcher what is going to happen. As funny as the idea is of President Trump being in state prison in New York, I have a feeling that that’s not gonna happen. I do wonder if the convictions and sentencing will make it through the appeals process. If they do, I have to imagine the state of New York will have accommodations waiting for him in January 2029.
Is the Democult dense enough to sentence a guy on fake charges who just won an electoral landslide and the pop vote, incl 40% of hispanics and popped the black vote by 100%.
Demonstrably yup.
BarneyGumble said:
Is the Democult dense enough to sentence a guy on fake charges who just won an electoral landslide and the pop vote, incl 40% of hispanics and popped the black vote by 100%.
Demonstrably yup.
There will be all kinds of nonsense coming. I'm hearing armed FBI agents are headed to Mara Lago. Reports that the mattresses have had their labels removed.
terp said:
There will be all kinds of nonsense coming. I'm hearing armed FBI agents are headed to Mara Lago. Reports that the mattresses have had their labels removed.
The voter turnouts and demographic breakdowns are sure to be heavily analyzed over the next couple of years.
We are once again in a position where it’s tempting to demonize the people who elected Trump as idiots or evil or whatever. Personally I think that’s self-defeating and does nothing to improve future chances. While we can (and will) debate the reason, the message of the Democrats wasn’t enough to overcome the message of Trump. Terp said it. We lost fair and square.
What can we do? I think the Democrats need to zero in on state legislature elections in the coming years. We’re six years from the next census and subsequent congressional district apportionments.
Obviously the gubernatorial elections, starting with NJ next year, are crucial. There’s still a chance at flipping the House but I don’t think relying on that is helpful. Although I’m bummed about Sue Altman. I thought she stood a chance against Kean, given his vulnerabilities.
The other thing I’ve been pondering this morning is what it would take to get a constitutional amendment to secure a woman’s right to choose whether to carry a pregnancy to term. 2/3 of each chamber of Congress would need to vote yes, then 3/4 of state legislatures. That seems like a pie in the sky type goal, but a very energetic and public campaign might give energy to Democratic candidates for both Congress and state houses.
mrincredible said:
The voter turnouts and demographic breakdowns are sure to be heavily analyzed over the next couple of years.
We are once again in a position where it’s tempting to demonize the people who elected Trump as idiots or evil or whatever. Personally I think that’s self-defeating and does nothing to improve future chances. While we can (and will) debate the reason, the message of the Democrats wasn’t enough to overcome the message of Trump. Terp said it. We lost fair and square.
What can we do? I think the Democrats need to zero in on state legislature elections in the coming years. We’re six years from the next census and subsequent congressional district apportionments.
Obviously the gubernatorial elections, starting with NJ next year, are crucial. There’s still a chance at flipping the House but I don’t think relying on that is helpful. Although I’m bummed about Sue Altman. I thought she stood a chance against Kean, given his vulnerabilities.
The other thing I’ve been pondering this morning is what it would take to get a constitutional amendment to secure a woman’s right to choose whether to carry a pregnancy to term. 2/3 of each chamber of Congress would need to vote yes, then 3/4 of state legislatures. That seems like a pie in the sky type goal, but a very energetic and public campaign might give energy to Democratic candidates for both Congress and state houses.
Found these results on Reuters on abortion initiatives.
FLORIDA - Failed The ballot measure, which came up just short of the 60% required to pass, would have amended the state constitution to guarantee abortion rights. Since May, Florida has banned abortions after the sixth week of pregnancy, with rare exceptions.Trump, a Florida resident, has said he would vote against the ballot measure, after initially appearing to suggest he would vote in favor.
ARIZONA - Passed The ballot measure amends the state constitution to guarantee abortion rights up to fetal viability, generally considered to be around 23 or 24 weeks. The state currently bans abortions after the 15th week of pregnancy.
MISSOURI - Passed The ballot measure would amend the state constitution to guarantee a "right to reproductive freedom." Abortion is presently banned in Missouri, with few exceptions.
NEVADA - Passed The ballot measure would amend the state constitution to guarantee abortion rights. State law already permits abortions up to 24 weeks, but amending Nevada's constitution would make it harder to roll those rights back. Voters would need to approve the measure twice, this year and again in 2026, to amend the constitution
.MONTANA - Passed The ballot measure would amend the state constitution to guarantee abortion rights. The amendment would uphold current law in Montana, where abortion remains legal.
COLORADO - Passed The ballot measure, which requires at least 55% of the vote to pass, would amend the state constitution to guarantee abortion rights. The amendment would uphold current law in Colorado, where abortion remains legal
.SOUTH DAKOTA - Failed, the Associated Press projected The ballot measure would have amended the state constitution to guarantee abortion rights. Abortion is presently banned in South Dakota, with few exceptions
.NEBRASKA - Failed, the Associated Press projected Nebraska voters faced two opposing ballot measures. One adding the right to access abortions to the state constitution failed. The other measure passed, enshrining the state's current 12-week ban, with exceptions for rape, incest and the life of the mother.
NEW YORK - Passed The ballot measure would amend the Equal Protection Clause of the New York Constitution to enshrine access to abortion and guarantee individuals' autonomy over reproductive healthcare. Abortion remains legal in New York
.MARYLAND - Passed The ballot measure would amend the state constitution to guarantee a "right to reproductive freedom," including the ability to continue or end one's own pregnancy. Abortion remains legal in Maryland.
I’m actually stunned at the amount of racists, misogynists and just plain stupid people who inhabit this nation. It’s depressing to say the least, but life goes on and it actually might be a good thing to watch the republicans destroy the economy… this way we won’t won’t see Vance being elected. There are absolutely dump people in this country. The amount is ridiculous!
mrincredible said:
We are once again in a position where it’s tempting to demonize the people who elected Trump as idiots or evil or whatever. Personally I think that’s self-defeating and does nothing to improve future chances. While we can (and will) debate the reason, the message of the Democrats wasn’t enough to overcome the message of Trump. Terp said it. We lost fair and square.
We lost because gas was expensive, and the stoopids think that Trump can lower the price.
Tell us how to make the stoopids accept reality. I'm all ears.
Jaytee said:
I’m actually stunned at the amount of racists, misogynists and just plain stupid people who inhabit this nation. It’s depressing to say the least, but life goes on and it actually might be a good thing to watch the republicans destroy the economy… this way we won’t won’t see Vance being elected. There are absolutely dump people in this country. The amount is ridiculous!
It is horrifying. I was so concerned watching him in the lead that I changed channels. Woke up at 2:30 to the news and was stunned by the size of the loss.
Did you notice that both New York and New Jersey had a significant number of votes for him?
My first thought was, can I avoid the news for a few years. That won't work so I'm going to focus on trying to imagine who we can pick for our next candidate.
I'll have to trust that MSNBC will keep me updated without having to listen to his words.
The Dem loss in the Senate and the House adds more frustration.
I think the popular vote tells the story. Trump went nowhere with his total from 2020. So he didn’t grab voters from Harris.
From what I can see, about 15 million Biden voters didn’t show up for Harris.
It can be debated for years why there was such a falloff. But that’s the story right there.
Barney, what positive outcomes for the country and people do you see from this election result?
(repeating question from another thread in case you check in here. or are you strictly snark and run?)
drummerboy said:
We lost because gas was expensive, and the stoopids think that Trump can lower the price.
Tell us how to make the stoopids accept reality. I'm all ears.
Brother, I feel your pain. I’ll see your expensive gas and raise you expensive groceries in general.
It’s not the stoopids who needed to be persuaded. It’s the 15 million 2020 Biden voters who didn’t vote this year. Why didn’t they? How to reach them?
I have my theories but I don’t know if this is the best time.
mrincredible said:
I think the popular vote tells the story. Trump went nowhere with his total from 2020. So he didn’t grab voters from Harris.
From what I can see, about 15 million Biden voters didn’t show up for Harris.
It can be debated for years why there was such a falloff. But that’s the story right there.
No such thing as a Biden voter, just people who wouldn't vote for the other guy.
That said, I think the reasons folks stayed home probably vary by state but, right now, I am looking at Michigan and, judging by the percentages, that one is entirely on Genocide Joe.
GoSlugs said:
No such thing as a Biden voter, just people who wouldn't vote for the other guy.
Ok, but where were they this time around? Why wouldn’t they vote against Trump this time?
mrincredible said:
drummerboy said:
We lost because gas was expensive, and the stoopids think that Trump can lower the price.
Tell us how to make the stoopids accept reality. I'm all ears.Brother, I feel your pain. I’ll see your expensive gas and raise you expensive groceries in general.
It’s not the stoopids who needed to be persuaded. It’s the 15 million 2020 Biden voters who didn’t vote this year. Why didn’t they? How to reach them?
I have my theories but I don’t know if this is the best time.
nope.
it's still a question of the stoopids. any registered voter who couldn't figure out the import of voting for Harris is in the same category as those who chose to vote for Trump. hell, any citizen, registered or not, who couldn't figure it out is in the same category.
and don't waste your time thinking about how to reach them. I've been saying this for years - they are unreachable, in any conventional sense. there is no message that you can concoct that will change their minds.
this was the tipping point. the liberal democracy experiment has failed. and the reasons for the failure range far and wide, from the fact that characters like Elon Musk and Joe Rogan wield power all the way to the popularity of reality TV, and everything in between.
we are so ****.
drummerboy said:
nope.
it's still a question of the stoopids. any registered voter who couldn't figure out the import of voting for Harris is in the same category as those who chose to vote for Trump. hell, any citizen, registered or not, who couldn't figure it out is in the same category.
and don't waste your time thinking about how to reach them. I've been saying this for years - they are unreachable, in any conventional sense. there is no message that you can concoct that will change their minds.
this was the tipping point. the liberal democracy experiment has failed. and the reasons for the failure range far and wide, from the fact that characters like Elon Musk and Joe Rogan wield power all the way to the popularity of reality TV, and everything in between.
we are so ****.
I see where you are, and I refuse to follow you there. I hope you’ll come back.
GoSlugs said:
mrincredible said:
I think the popular vote tells the story. Trump went nowhere with his total from 2020. So he didn’t grab voters from Harris.
From what I can see, about 15 million Biden voters didn’t show up for Harris.
It can be debated for years why there was such a falloff. But that’s the story right there.
No such thing as a Biden voter, just people who wouldn't vote for the other guy.
That said, I think the reasons folks stayed home probably vary by state but, right now, I am looking at Michigan and, judging by the percentages, that one is entirely on Genocide Joe.
no. it's on the idiots who didn't vote for Harris. anyone who thinks helping Trump get elected will be better for Palestinians is a goddamn effing moron. they have doomed Gaza. Hope they're happy about that.
My 2 cents.
I don't think there was or is any solution to the economic perception problem. Prices are higher, people don't like it, and they blame the incumbent whether he or she had control over it or not. No amount of comparisons to how other nations fared makes a dent. Telling people that their incomes rose more than prices makes no difference because they feel that they "earned" the pay hike and still resent the higher prices. If they don't own stocks, they don't care. Things were "better" under Trump (even though he was just riding on Obama's economic coattails).
In hindsight, Biden clearly should not have run. A robust primary would have helped greatly. I don't think Harris would have emerged from that primary.
Unfortunately, I still don't think America is ready for a woman President because many right and centrist men across the spectrum are misogynists and many women on the right seem to want to be controlled.
The only controllable issue was and is immigration. That is, until Trump killed the immigration deal - the pivot point in this cycle, in my opinion.
Whether we here like it or not, the perception of an out-of-control border does not sit well with Americans on most of the political spectrum Whether it is fear of lawlessness or outright racism, this is the issue of the day.
I had a long conversation with a coworker the other day. She initiated it. She's a single, 30-something Ecuadoran national working here on a green card. Well-educated, fluent in English. She recounted her resentment of the migrants and "illegals" who are here "gaming the system" and using our country for benefits without contributing anything. She blames them for the uptick in crime as well. I argued that they commit crimes at lesser rates, cannot consume services for fear of being deported, take jobs no American wants, can't work because we don't give them work permits, and that deporting them all would lead to inflation. Didn't seem to make a dent in her perceptions.
Trump improved his share of the Latinx vote by something like 20 points. this cycle IMO, it is because those here with the right to vote feel that they followed the rules and that the current wave is not. They resent it and feel that it reflects on them. It is they only way that I can explain how they can support him despite being denigrated by Trump at every turn.
Someone in the Democratic Party needs to be out front in securing the border and fixing the legal immigration system and blaming the Republicans for not doing so.
How, I don't know.
One stark difference. Josh Stein got 350,000 more votes for governor in North Carolina than Harris got for president. Way more than Trump’s lead. I’m not sure if those people voted for Trump or just didn’t vote for president.
Trump got about 600,000 more votes than the Republican candidate for governor.
mrincredible said:
One stark difference. Josh Stein got 350,000 more votes for governor in North Carolina than Harris got for president. Way more than Trump’s lead. I’m not sure if those people voted for Trump or just didn’t vote for president.
Trump got about 600,000 more votes than the Republican candidate for governor.
It sounds like a lot of Trump voters in North Carolina declined to vote for, and many voted against, the GOP gubernatorial candidate who even Trump refused to be associated with in the end.
mrincredible said:
drummerboy said:
nope.
it's still a question of the stoopids. any registered voter who couldn't figure out the import of voting for Harris is in the same category as those who chose to vote for Trump. hell, any citizen, registered or not, who couldn't figure it out is in the same category.
and don't waste your time thinking about how to reach them. I've been saying this for years - they are unreachable, in any conventional sense. there is no message that you can concoct that will change their minds.
this was the tipping point. the liberal democracy experiment has failed. and the reasons for the failure range far and wide, from the fact that characters like Elon Musk and Joe Rogan wield power all the way to the popularity of reality TV, and everything in between.
we are so ****.
I see where you are, and I refuse to follow you there. I hope you’ll come back.
yeah, well, we'll see what the future holds. And it's not me that needs to come back. It's most of America.
I have no idea how much time you, or anyone here, spends listening to what Trump says at rallies, or to what rally goers have to say about him. I spend a lot. Too much for my mental well being, probably. If you don't spend time doing this I don't think you can have any clue about how deep the rot has gotten into the American psyche.
Americans as a whole have never been policy wonks. They don't have anything more than the most superficial understanding of things like how the economy works, and never have. And I'm not saying that they necessarily needed to in the past, because leaders, the people that citizens looked to for this kind of information, more or less believed in a similar reality.
However, we now live in an age where some leaders simply tell people that up is down, and tens of millions of people say OK!
There no longer is a shared reality. This is the fundamental problem of our age. And, because of the constraints of our political system, I have no idea how to correct this.Nor have I seen anyone suggest how it can be corrected. And, frankly, there are not nearly enough people who recognize this as the fundamental problem.
You can't effectively communicate with people who don't believe that up is up, until you first convince them that up is up.
Good luck on that.
Look, I'm not saying to give up. I'm just saying that the challenge ahead is far more difficult than most people think. It's not simply a question of crafting a "message". The messaging in this campaign could not have been clearer as to the fundamental difference between the two choices, where one choice was so spectacularly bad, in a myriad of ways. Yet it failed.
I'm disappointed because Trump is a bad man who should never have come near the presidency again after the way he went out four years ago. I was also dead wrong about this bc I was convinced he was finished politically.
That said, I'm guardedly optimistic that the next four years will not be disastrous, as 2016-2020 weren't disastrous, and the sky is not falling. Time will tell on that.
While Trump didn't deserve to win, the Democrats didn't deserve to win either. I think the party can use some time in the timeout-corner wilderness to take stock. At a high level I think they went too far left early in Biden's term which came back to bite them, and then the whole Biden / not Biden debacle was decidedly arrogant, patronizing and undemocratic.
Harris herself actually ran a decent campaign and deserves little blame -- she was just behind the eight ball from the beginning.
New Jersey and Virginia have gubernatorial elections next year.
The 2026 Senate election looks like a wash in terms of trying to flip control. Maybe the Democrats could oust Susan Collins in Maine, and North Carolina did just elect a Democrat is governor so maybe they could win against Tom Tillis.
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Trump's coming loss today (fingers crossed) will mark the official start of 2024 election denialism. Trump has been setting the stage rhetorically by already raising allegations of cheating. MAGA has been working since 2021 to install denialists and other crackpots in official election positions across the country, ready to deny certification if the vote goes to Harris, and they've probably got other tricks up their sleeves to muck up the results.. The RNC has more than 50 million dollars stockpiled for court challenges. Sporadic acts of violence have been occurring during the early voting period. Many states have had to add police protection to protect their poll workers.
The fun is just getting ready to start.