Pope Francis, Catholics, and Christians in the news & Bible verses

"In Sri Lanka today the victims were Christian.   

In New Zealand last month the victims were Muslim.

In Pittsburgh last year the victims were Jewish.

If you pray, pray for an end to religious bigotry -- and to the violence it inspires."

-Steve Simon


“Outside Vienna today, some Habsburgs died for some reason or another”

- Some guy in Sept, 1683



interesting development:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-48081483 practical application of personal ethics in 'the migration question'. 


Robert_Casotto said:
“Outside Vienna today, some Habsburgs died for some reason or another”
- Some guy in Sept, 1683


 They were fighting over how to make a proper croissant.


I often wonder what the conversations are in the government offices of the countries from which so many are fleeing. Any soul-searching? 


There's no need to wonder. The government I left is talking about separating children from their parents and then doing it.  They are also responsible for the deaths of 3,000 Puerto Ricans and in talks with dictators while lining their pockets and hiding their taxes.


mtierney said:
I often wonder what the conversations are in the government offices of the countries from which so many are fleeing. Any soul-searching? 

The governments are obviously dysfunctional and unable (whether due to poverty, corruption, or otherwise) to address the needs of those who decide to migrate.  

If you were faced with a case of child neglect, would you stop to wonder about the parents' "soul-searching" before helping the child?  No.


nohero said:


mtierney said:
I often wonder what the conversations are in the government offices of the countries from which so many are fleeing. Any soul-searching? 
If you were faced with a case of child neglect, would you stop to wonder about the parents' "soul-searching" before helping the child?  No.

 Your certainty does not seem to be born up by the evidence at hand.


mtierney said:
I often wonder what the conversations are in the government offices of the countries from which so many are fleeing. Any soul-searching? 

The officials who are honest are upset. They ask "how can we stop that foreign country of drug users from feeding our drug wars? How can we stop that country, a country with basically no weapons control, from supplying weapons to the cartels?"

When a cartel member is caught, invariably a weapon proudly made in the US of A is collected.

On the Mexican border we have smuggling. Migrants and drugs going one way, weapons the other direction.

Any soul-searching? Here? 


nohero said:


mtierney said:
I often wonder what the conversations are in the government offices of the countries from which so many are fleeing. Any soul-searching? 
The governments are obviously dysfunctional and unable (whether due to poverty, corruption, or otherwise) to address the needs of those who decide to migrate.  
If you were faced with a case of child neglect, would you stop to wonder about the parents' "soul-searching" before helping the child?  No.

 Many of the sending countries have been receiving millions of dollars in American aid for years. America is at fault for not demanding accountability for sure. 

You asked me, personally, if faced with a case of child neglect, what I would do. Was it physical neglect, or observation that the child was left alone, without adult supervision for extended periods of time? Did the child appear dirty, unkempt, hungry? It can be a tough call to contact child services. Approaching the parents if you really don’t know their circumstances is tricky. If the family is new to the neighborhood or school district, perhaps information about available social services needs to be made know. 




Jesus was a socialist.  


mtierney said:
Socialism as viewed by Popes down the ages. 
http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/what-is-wrong-with-socialism

 Who was Pope Francis named after again?


Jesus’ primary inspiration was Karl Marx the Nazarene.  Everyone knows that.


This is a case where the definition of "socialism" is important.  The first papal document mentioned in the article is Rerum Novarum ("Of The New Things"), an 1891 encyclical by Pope Leo XIII.  The word "socialism" describes the following: "The socialists, working on the poor man's envy of the rich, are striving to do away with private property, and contend that individual possessions should become the common property of all, to be administered by the State or by municipal bodies." [para.  4] We'd call that "communism" today.

As for what government should do, that same encyclical says this: "Still, when there is question of defending the rights of individuals, the poor and badly off have a claim to especial consideration. The richer class have many ways of shielding themselves, and stand less in need of help from the State; whereas the mass of the poor have no resources of their own to fall back upon, and must chiefly depend upon the assistance of the State. And it is for this reason that wage-earners, since they mostly belong in the mass of the needy, should be specially cared for and protected by the government." [para. 37]

That's 1891, pre-Bernie and pre-AOC.


Klinker said:
Jesus was a socialist.  

Do you acknowledge that the Reformation altered Christianity (viz., mostly what became the Protestant portion NOT in the Catholic tradition)?

Are you aware that this country was initially settled (by people such as the Pilgrims at Plymouth MA 1620) who rejected much of organized religion (as embodied then by the Church of England or the Catholic Church of Rome)?

One of the preeminent concepts of the Reformation was predestination.  Predestination is the opposite of socialism.



nohero said:
The richer class have many ways of shielding themselves, and stand less in need of help from the State; whereas the mass of the poor have no resources of their own to fall back upon, and must chiefly depend upon the assistance of the State. And it is for this reason that wage-earners, since they mostly belong in the mass of the needy, should be specially cared for and protected by the government." [para. 37]


 I think that this concept of the State assisting the poor can be clearly seen in various old-time legislative policy decisions, such as:

1.  NJ sales tax exemption for food and clothing.

2.  Prior exemption from sales tax for beer in NJ (my recollection is that this exemption was repealed in the 1980s - the thought process for the exemption was that beer was imbibed by the working man/woman and thus deserved exemption).




Calvinism features the concept of the preterite (predestination).  Not all forms of Protestantism do.


Robert_Casotto said:
and that Henry VIII created the Church of England so he could get laid?

However, the Church of England was/is a church in the Catholic tradition. And, thus, was/is not a great adopter of the Reformation changes.

As to getting laid, I don't think HVIII had a problem getting laid.  I think HVIII's problem was getting rid of wives when he tired of them.



dave said:
Calvinism features the concept of the preterite (predestination).  Not all forms of Protestantism do.

 Agreed.


"Predestination is the opposite of socialism."

This seems to be a bit of a logical fallacy.  If I am a wealthy landowner, that could be because it was predestined and I had no agency.   Or if I am a wealthy landowner it could be because I worked very hard of my own choice.    It is socialism that is more likely to predestine someone's life by forcing them to study engineering and work in a collective and live in certain housing.


dave said:
"Predestination is the opposite of socialism."
This seems to be a bit of a logical fallacy.  If I am a wealthy landowner, that could be because it was predestined and I had no agency.   Or if I am a wealthy landowner it could be because I worked very hard of my own choice.    It is socialism that is more likely to predestine someone's life by forcing them to study engineering and work in a collective and live in certain housing.

How does socialism "force" a person to:

1.  study engineering,

2.  work in a collective, and

3.  live in certain housing.


proeasdf said:
How does socialism "force" a person to:
1.  study engineering,
2.  work in a collective, and
3.  live in certain housing.

Ask my Chinese in-laws.   Very different today in the cities, but not so in poorer areas of China. 


dave said:


proeasdf said:
How does socialism "force" a person to:
1.  study engineering,
2.  work in a collective, and
3.  live in certain housing.
Ask my Chinese in-laws.   Very different today in the cities, but not so in poorer areas of China. 

 Respectfully, sounds like the above outcomes may instead be the result of social conditioning (such as Confucianism which leads to elevating education, scholarship and standardized testing).  

"For millennia, the Chinese have been culturally conditioned to suppress own personal needs and think in terms of collective responsibility—first, to their families, then community, clan, and nation at large."  See https://www.china-mike.com/chinese-culture/understanding-chinese-mind/confucius/


proeasdf — thanks so much for sharing that link. 


mtierney said:
proeasdf — thanks so much for sharing that link. 

 Bú yòng xiè (translation: you are welcome).


proeasdf said:
 Respectfully, sounds like the above outcomes may instead be the result of social conditioning (such as Confucianism which leads to elevating education, scholarship and standardized testing).  
"For millennia, the Chinese have been culturally conditioned to suppress own personal needs and think in terms of collective responsibility—first, to their families, then community, clan, and nation at large."  See https://www.china-mike.com/chinese-culture/understanding-chinese-mind/confucius/

 Dave will correct me if I'm wrong, but it's my understanding that the Chinese Communist system reversed those priorities.  The nation at large comes first, and so on.


I am pretty sure Jesus wasn't a Calvanist.


proeasdf said:
 Respectfully, sounds like the above outcomes may instead be the result of social conditioning (such as Confucianism which leads to elevating education, scholarship and standardized testing).  
"For millennia, the Chinese have been culturally conditioned to suppress own personal needs and think in terms of collective responsibility—first, to their families, then community, clan, and nation at large."  See https://www.china-mike.com/chinese-culture/understanding-chinese-mind/confucius/

I would agree to some small extent, but it runs in parallel with Chinese communism/socialism, especially during the GPCR in the '60s and '70s to Mao's dictum to 'purge the old'--especially Confucianism;  to go even as far as to turn one's own parents in to the authorities for 'bourgeois tendencies.'


dave said:


proeasdf said:
 Respectfully, sounds like the above outcomes may instead be the result of social conditioning (such as Confucianism which leads to elevating education, scholarship and standardized testing).  
"For millennia, the Chinese have been culturally conditioned to suppress own personal needs and think in terms of collective responsibility—first, to their families, then community, clan, and nation at large."  See https://www.china-mike.com/chinese-culture/understanding-chinese-mind/confucius/
I would agree to some small extent, but it runs in parallel with Chinese communism/socialism, especially during the GPCR in the '60s and '70s to Mao's dictum to 'purge the old'--especially Confucianism;  to go even as far as to turn one's own parents in to the authorities for 'bourgeois tendencies.'

 The authority and stature of Confucius has waxed and waned in China over the centuries.   See https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/20/arts/international/for-confucius-and-his-descendants-a-cultural-comeback.html

However, using Confucian precepts to fashion Chinese policy now appears to be in vogue.

And, also see:  https://www.straitstimes.com/opinion/the-confucian-roots-of-xi-jinpings-policies


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