The Iran Deal Thread

"diligence"


Going into the North Korea meeting, senior administration officials say, the president has been almost singularly focused on the pageantry of the summit —including the suspenseful roll-out of details. He has not been deeply engaged in briefing materials on North Korea’s nuclear program, said three people with knowledge of the White House efforts. They were not authorized to speak publicly.

https://apnews.com/f2e5aa3856b44b4b823064834dfb819d



Diligently manufacturing pre-commemorative lapel-wear.



BCC said:


 Can you answer any of those questions or do you automatically think you're dealing with an ignoramus?

 Depends. What's your definition of ignoramus?


drummerboy said:
"diligence"



Going into the North Korea meeting, senior administration officials say, the president has been almost singularly focused on the pageantry of the summit —including the suspenseful roll-out of details. He has not been deeply engaged in briefing materials on North Korea’s nuclear program, said three people with knowledge of the White House efforts. They were not authorized to speak publicly.
https://apnews.com/f2e5aa3856b44b4b823064834dfb819d


Pageantry is a turn on for him. Bigly.

He doesn't focus on substantive matters. One of his account people said that when he signs his tax forms he has no idea. Its just presented to him and he does.

Which explains why he follows and tends to do what the last person he likes tells him. He does not have a connect with what he was told previously. Consequently, we see him often change his "position." Its not his position, its the latest what he was told.


BCC said:


Do you know the definition of 'diligence? I'll save you the trouble.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/diligence
'a : steady, earnest, and energetic effort : persevering application '
Trump showed those qualities in each of the events I listed.
He is actively involved in the NOKO affair'
He made a promise and pushed it to fruition.
He broke the record for seating judges.
You and the others are making a serious mistake if you think you're dealing with a fool.

 I think you are right in saying, "You and the others are making a serious mistake if you think you're dealing with a fool.".  A man can be profoundly ignorant and self-absorbed while having very keen instincts for appealing to angry mobs.  This is whyTrump is so dangerous.  As I have said previously, he would gladly preside over radioactive ruins as long as he can claim victory.  Long ago, when Trump's candidacy was still a joke, he reminded me of Greg Stillson, the presidential candidate in Stephen King's The Dead Zone.


I don't think anyone thinks Trump is a harmless fool.  I think a lot of people think he's a dangerous fool.  I'm not sure anyone is making the mistake of underestimating what kinds of things he's capable of doing.


ml1 said:
I don't think anyone thinks Trump is a harmless fool.  I think a lot of people think he's a dangerous fool.  I'm not sure anyone is making the mistake of underestimating what kinds of things he's capable of doing.

 

That's because you and the others haven't listened. I told you ( plural ) not to pay attention to what he says, but what he does.

If you listen to what he says, at times it will be total BS, at other times he will have changed his mind because someone gave him a better idea and sometimes he will be in bargaining mode, - and sometimes you won't be able to tell one from the other.

For example, what has he actually done about NOKO?

He has brought home 3 hostages, he has sent Pompeo there twice to talk to Kim and so far the summit is still in place,and he has talked to China, about what we are not certain.

Quoting unnamed sources and dreaming up insulting scenarios may make some people feel better, they contribute nothing to the conversation.


BCC said:

For example, what has he actually done about NOKO?
He has brought home 3 hostages, he has sent Pompeo there twice to talk to Kim and so far the summit is still in place,and he has talked to China, about what we are not certain.
Quoting unnamed sources and dreaming up insulting scenarios may make some people feel better, they contribute nothing to the conversation.

Lots of talking, not much action, except the hostages.


dave23 said:


BCC said:
For example, what has he actually done about NOKO?
He has brought home 3 hostages, he has sent Pompeo there twice to talk to Kim and so far the summit is still in place,and he has talked to China, about what we are not certain.
Quoting unnamed sources and dreaming up insulting scenarios may make some people feel better, they contribute nothing to the conversation.
Lots of talking, not much action, except the hostages.

 And the tchotchkes.  

dave23 said:
Diligently manufacturing pre-commemorative lapel-wear.


 


dave23 said:
Lots of talking, not much action, except the hostages.

just to put this in perspective, 10 hostages were released by NK during Obama's presidency (or, to put it in terms Trump supporters would understand "thousands!")


Breaking news: Trump just announced the meeting will not happen on June 12, they had to move it because it turns out Kim could not make it that day. He had forgot to check his calendar, and he already had a haircut scheduled that day, and his barber is very busy, so he could not move. But not to worry, the meeting will happen one day, perhaps. And it may be a really good meeting, or maybe not, who knows, we"ll see. But we can be sure of one thing: it will be a tremendous success, whether the meeting happens or not, and whether a deal is made, and what type of deal is made. No matter what he does, I already sense it will be one of the best things that any US President has ever done.


gerritn said:


dave23 said:
Lots of talking, not much action, except the hostages.
just to put this in perspective, 10 hostages were released by NK during Obama's presidency (or, to put it in terms Trump supporters would understand "thousands!")

 Yes, and Obama managed those accomplishments without showering the North Korean dictator with praise.


If memory serves, Obama didn't fly out to meet the idiots who wandered into the DPRK for a photo-op, so as to discourage others.  Meanwhile the Trump administration keeps moving the goal posts.  First it was the north dismantles all nukes with inspectors.  Now it's only long-range nukes in return for rebuilding their economy.  I predict it changes again, and not to our benefit with the Keystone Cops running the State Dept.  That's if the summit happens at all.


BCC said:


ml1 said:
I don't think anyone thinks Trump is a harmless fool.  I think a lot of people think he's a dangerous fool.  I'm not sure anyone is making the mistake of underestimating what kinds of things he's capable of doing.
 
That's because you and the others haven't listened. I told you ( plural ) not to pay attention to what he says, but what he does. 


you are telling me something that I myself have written many times.


ml1 said:


BCC said:


ml1 said:
I don't think anyone thinks Trump is a harmless fool.  I think a lot of people think he's a dangerous fool.  I'm not sure anyone is making the mistake of underestimating what kinds of things he's capable of doing.
 
That's because you and the others haven't listened. I told you ( plural ) not to pay attention to what he says, but what he does. 


you are telling me something that I myself have written many times.

 Ignoring what he says is quite foolish, if you ask me, if for no other reason than to understand the upside-down, inside-out worldview of tens of millions of people who believe every word he says.


The words of the American President matter as much as his actions.  That Trump has chosen to run the government like a Shonda Rimes scandal-drama is consequential for all of us.


"President Trump opened the door on Tuesday to a phased dismantling of North Korea’s nuclear weapons program, backing away from his demand that the North’s leader, Kim Jong-un, completely abandon his arsenal without any reciprocal American concessions."

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/22/world/asia/trump-korea-summit.html

So how does that work?

Trump:  "Get rid of your nukes."

Kim:  "If you take all your troops out, we'll give up our nukes."

Trump: "It's a deal."

South Korea: "Okay, what just happened here?"


drummerboy said:


ml1 said:

BCC said:


ml1 said:
I don't think anyone thinks Trump is a harmless fool.  I think a lot of people think he's a dangerous fool.  I'm not sure anyone is making the mistake of underestimating what kinds of things he's capable of doing.
 
That's because you and the others haven't listened. I told you ( plural ) not to pay attention to what he says, but what he does. 


you are telling me something that I myself have written many times.
 Ignoring what he says is quite foolish, if you ask me, if for no other reason than to understand the upside-down, inside-out worldview of tens of millions of people who believe every word he says.

I don't ignore it.  I read it, process it, and only respond if there is something worthwhile to respond to.  And yes, for the reasons you cite -- it gives me a glimpse into the Trump apologist echo chamber.


Michelle Goldberg had advice for the Trump apologists who keep getting fooled by Trump.

Stop Giving Trump The Benefit Of The Doubt

Nevertheless, credulous commentators praised Trump for bringing North Korea to the table, as if a seat at the table wasn’t what North Korea wanted all along. And pundits, including some who are broadly critical of the president, hectored us to give him credit.

{snip}

Pushing against such a current can be hard for fair-minded journalists, who rightly pride themselves on being open to new information and willing to re-examine their own assumptions. But Trump, whose only real talent is the manipulation of reality, exploits this impulse.

Of course, we all have a motive in playing along with the fiction that Trump has achieved a Korean breakthrough — it might stop him from starting a war. But it’s one thing to humor our idiot president, and another to let the gravitational pull of presidential power, and the deep desire for a minimally competent leader, warp reality. We all want to be open-minded, but con men should never be given the benefit of the doubt.



ml1 said:


BCC said:


ml1 said:
I don't think anyone thinks Trump is a harmless fool.  I think a lot of people think he's a dangerous fool.  I'm not sure anyone is making the mistake of underestimating what kinds of things he's capable of doing.
 
That's because you and the others haven't listened. I told you ( plural ) not to pay attention to what he says, but what he does. 


you are telling me something that I myself have written many times.

 

I don't recall your ever saying that but will take your word for it, and that you agree with me on this issue.

Which leads to the obvious – how do you square that with the MI's endless speculation on everything Trump and always to his disadvantage.

After all you just saw one final agreement that the release of the hostages was to Trumps credi,t and several attempts to disparage even that.


BCC said:


After all you just saw one final agreement that the release of the hostages was to Trumps credi,t and several attempts to disparage even that.

Trump's making it about himself, praising the murderous dictator of North Korea, and suggesting that the previous administration had "long been asking for three hostages to be released" were are worth disparagement. 

I'm guessing you are okay with all three of those things.


Any leader can claim credit for things that happen on their watch.  In this sense, Trump can claim credit for the return of the hostages.  As a practical matter, releasing the hostages cost North Korea nothing, but through twisted logic made Kim Jong Un look somewhat reasonable.  The twisted logic, of course, is that taking these 3 men prisoner was essentially a barbaric act.  I don't see releasing them as reasonable so much as it is horse-trading.


tjohn said:
Any leader can claim credit for things that happen on their watch.  In this sense, Trump can claim credit for the return of the hostages.  As a practical matter, releasing the hostages cost North Korea nothing, but through twisted logic made Kim Jong Un look somewhat reasonable.  The twisted logic, of course, is that taking these 3 men prisoner was essentially a barbaric act.  I don't see releasing them as reasonable so much as it is horse-trading.

 We both know that politicians take credit for anything positive that happens while in office and disavow anything negative.

The question is - what did Kim get in this horse trade he didn't already have? He was already seen as reasonable for several acts preceding the release.


dave23 said:


BCC said:

After all you just saw one final agreement that the release of the hostages was to Trumps credi,t and several attempts to disparage even that.
Trump's making it about himself, praising the murderous dictator of North Korea, and suggesting that the previous administration had "long been asking for three hostages to be released" were are worth disparagement. 
I'm guessing you are okay with all three of those things.

 I.m guessing you were OK with 'Strategic Patience'. Do you still feel that way now that there is no more road down which to kick the can?


BCC said:

The question is - what did Kim get in this horse trade he didn't already have? He was already seen as reasonable for several acts preceding the release.

 That's an easy one.  The ball's in his court now.  Trump doesn't have the hostages as a pretext to say that he's the one who's walking away, if the summit doesn't happen.  As note above, Trump is already backing away on "What's the definition of 'denuclearization'?"


BCC said:


dave23 said:

BCC said:

After all you just saw one final agreement that the release of the hostages was to Trumps credi,t and several attempts to disparage even that.
Trump's making it about himself, praising the murderous dictator of North Korea, and suggesting that the previous administration had "long been asking for three hostages to be released" were are worth disparagement. 
I'm guessing you are okay with all three of those things.
 I.m guessing you were OK with 'Strategic Patience'. Do you still feel that way now that there is no more road down which to kick the can?

As I've stated multiple times, I'm fine with the US meeting with Kim. That doesn't mean we need to praise him for how well he treated his kidnapping victims. And it doesn't make Trump lying about the kidnapping victims okay.

The 10 hostages released during Obama's tenure didn't get us any closer to a truce with NK, so I'm not convinced that any progress toward that goal has been made. Lots of talk--which is fine--but no action or hard decisions have been made yet.


This whole stance is making start to seem reasonable for the rest of the world to simply demand the USA stop killing its schoolchildren, or we'll stop talking with you/sanction you until you do.  


BCC said:


dave23 said:

BCC said:

After all you just saw one final agreement that the release of the hostages was to Trumps credi,t and several attempts to disparage even that.
Trump's making it about himself, praising the murderous dictator of North Korea, and suggesting that the previous administration had "long been asking for three hostages to be released" were are worth disparagement. 
I'm guessing you are okay with all three of those things.
 I.m guessing you were OK with 'Strategic Patience'. Do you still feel that way now that there is no more road down which to kick the can?

 Looks like Trump just found a side street.

I'm confused though. Is this something Trump said so I should ignore it, or something he did so I should pay attention to it?

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/24/trump-says-singapore-summit-with-north-korea-leader-kim-is-cancelled-.html


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