Why are there intersections where left turn has right of way, but no left-turn arrow on traffic lights?
This is fairly common, and very annoying in NJ. I know of a number in Hanover on streets crosing Rt 10.
Left from Gregory northbound onto Northfield westbound.
It's a particularly stupid system.
It's probably cheaper to program the light sequence than to change the light lens to a green arrow....
A sign indicating that opposing traffic has delayed green would be a simple fix. Its not a matter of 'right of way' though. If you are not familiar with the intersection...you have to pull up and wait to see that the opposing traffic isn't moving. Yes there are many others...I can't think of exact locations though.
jmitw said:
A sign indicating that opposing traffic has delayed green would be a simple fix. Its not a matter of 'right of way' though. If you are not familiar with the intersection...you have to pull up and wait to see that the opposing traffic isn't moving. Yes there are many others...I can't think of exact locations though.
I thought 'right of way' might not be the correct term... but "It's the Left-turner's turn to go" sounded worse. 
Thanks! I guess what I'm really looking for is whether there was any intention to change the lights over to have arrows, and it was eventually forgotten at the bottom of some paper pile, or funding for a new light was not found?
Or if these were created with the thought 'Eh, people will mostly figure it out, so this is good enough'?
In other words, would a nice little reminder to someone help?
(And also, a self-reality-check: Is it just my obsessive-compulsiveness... or is this actually deserving of some attention?)
The correct term (if there is anything 'correct' about this foolishness) is "delayed green." there ought to be signage, but considering this has been like this at these intersections for the 25 years I have lived in New Jersey, I don't think there is any intention whatsoever to change things.
To me I see "delayed green" as where one direction has a left turn light an the other does not so one direction gets the left turn and green while the other direction is stopped then the left turn light goes off an the other direction gets the green as well.
That is different from the situation here where one direction gets the green for a whole cycle while the other direction is stopped then the other direction gets the green for a whole cycle.
Jersey drivers need a sign to tell them to aggressively stomp on the gas the moment their light turns green?
Sybil said:
To me I see "delayed green" as where one direction has a left turn light an the other does not so one direction gets the left turn and green while the other direction is stopped then the left turn light goes off an the other direction gets the green as well.
That is different from the situation here where one direction gets the green for a whole cycle while the other direction is stopped then the other direction gets the green for a whole cycle.
I think at the Stuyvesant left onto Oakland, it's a delayed green. (Which makes the missing arrow seem all the more dangerous, as oncoming traffic starts to move at some unknown time).
At the Prospect left onto Mt. Pleasant, I'm not sure. Is it that each direction gets their green light separately for a whole cycle?
It's particularly stupid because those left turners have no reason to expect that they have right of way (other than the "Jersey Left" mentality) so it can have a delaying effect if someone does what they are supposed to and waits for opposing traffic, only to figure out after a second or two that the opposing traffic still has a red light.
Turning left from Gregory onto Northfield. Turning left from Millburn Ave onto Wyoming. Annoying until you know the intersection well
Just another reason why New Jersey is such a terrible place to get around.
These are so frustrating, and seem to be fairly common in our area. I grew up in Central Jersey and had never, ever seen this before moving to South Orange. Whoever is responsible had some seriously poor planning.
Turning left from Springfield onto Indiana. There's a left-hand arrow...sometimes. I'm not 100% sure as to when it's active, but it's annoying as heck given that there's a left-turn lane and everything.
So you really want to know the actual names for every type of traffic light configuration and phasing? Enjoy...
http://midimagic.sgc-hosting.com/lagdef.html
The term for any left turn that faces no oncoming traffic or pedestrians is "protected left". A left turn that must yield to traffic and peds is a "permissive left."
Delayed Green signs usually warn you that the opposing direction goes first, so don't step on the gas when you think the light's going to turn green.
The problem with displaying the protected left signal, like a green arrow, is the existing signal heads have only the standard three faces. Since the light balls can only show one aspect, you can't have a protected left arrow without adding a fourth face. Except of course if we had the blinking green like California, which means protected left. We know the likelihood of that being implemented.
So Delayed Green isn't the right sign, and actually showing protected lefts requires modifying the signals. Meaning nothing will happen, and keep assuming you've gotta make a Jersey Left.
Can't talk about the three face light without showing how it came about...
http://designobserver.com/feature/red-light-green-light--the-invention-of--the-traffic-signal/8627/
http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2012/03/the-origin-of-the-green-yellow-and-red-color-scheme-for-traffic-lights/
jmitw said:
"OPPOSING TRAFFIC has delayed green" would be an appropriate sign
You assume people would understand what that meant. 
dk50b said:
So Delayed Green isn't the right sign, and actually showing protected lefts requires modifying the signals. Meaning nothing will happen, and keep assuming you've gotta make a Jersey Left.
Thanks @dk50b. I was hoping you'd weigh in!
After being here over a decade, I suppose I should stop waiting for these lights to be 'fixed'. So, it seems the: 'Eh, costs too much for a new light and signal programming... drivers will just have to figure it out' is how they came to be.
Are these traffic lights usually managed at the municipal, county, or state level?
sprout said:
dk50b said:Thanks @dk50b. I was hoping you'd weigh in!
So Delayed Green isn't the right sign, and actually showing protected lefts requires modifying the signals. Meaning nothing will happen, and keep assuming you've gotta make a Jersey Left.
After being here over a decade, I suppose I should stop waiting for these lights to be 'fixed'. So, it seems the: 'Eh, costs too much for a new light and signal programming... drivers will just have to figure it out' is how they came to be.
Are these traffic lights usually managed at the municipal, county, or state level?
The answer is all three. Depends on who's road it is. And to determine that, here's the authoritative source..
http://www.state.nj.us/transportation/gis/map.shtm
The maps have the roads color coded by who's responsible. Generally, the highest level agency maintains the signals. So for you second example in the OP, the signals at Prospect and Mt. Pleasant are DOT's responsibility, since Mt. Pleasant is a state highway.
Apropos this thread, did anyone catch today's Google Doodle?
http://www.csmonitor.com/Technology/2015/0805/When-was-the-first-traffic-light-installed-asks-Google-Doodle-video
I've long realized NJ is the "you're just supposed to know state" when it comes to travelling our roads. No consistency in the traffic control systems, abysmal directional signs that display useless information or don't appear until right before you're at the point of decision.
Imagine if the $30 million being used to smooth the S curves on SOA could have been used to replace the traffic controls on every Essex County highway to address the left turn and other unclear situations. But the Feds don't spread the wealth that way, and with the state Transportation Trust Fund bankrupt, it's up to County and local government to deal with it, if at all.
dk50b said:
I've long realized NJ is the "you're just supposed to know state" when it comes to travelling our roads.
You've just made me feel a lot better.
On the bright side, I realized the other half of the equation some time ago: It's also the "Can't be lost for very long" state. Go far enough in any direction anywhere in the state, and -- as long as you don't hit traffic -- you'll get to some recognizable highway within a few minutes. (However, you may not be able to get on it from where you are, or, at least, not in the direction you wanted to go).
sprout said:
dk50b said:You've just made me feel a lot better.
I've long realized NJ is the "you're just supposed to know state" when it comes to travelling our roads.
On the bright side, I realized the other half of the equation some time ago: It's also the "Can't be lost for very long" state. Go far enough in any direction anywhere in the state, and -- as long as you don't hit traffic -- you'll get to some recognizable highway within a few minutes. (However, you may not be able to get on it from where you are, or, at least, not in the direction you wanted to go).
Having done lots of driving in the most densely developed part of the most densely populated state, I've gotta say there are many places where you can travel for a long time and never see a major, identified highway. While I'm spewing state facts, how many know that NJ is the 4th smallest state?
On the other hand, Hudson and especially Bergen counties are criss crossed by a web of streets that can easily keep you lost for hours. My undeserved self-confidence in the days before the GPS humbled me on a few occasions.
I also recall it's at best within the past 10 years that route markers appeared on the 500 series secondary highways, which if you know those numbers is a humongous help. While looking for when that happened, I found this great site where an Aussie Iiving here explains the rules of the road..
http://www.expataussieinnj.com/driving-in-new-jersey-it-isnt-driving-miss-daisy/
The warnings include the Jersey Left and people who don't use their signals (why?!).
sprout said:
dk50b said:Thanks @dk50b. I was hoping you'd weigh in!
So Delayed Green isn't the right sign, and actually showing protected lefts requires modifying the signals. Meaning nothing will happen, and keep assuming you've gotta make a Jersey Left.
After being here over a decade, I suppose I should stop waiting for these lights to be 'fixed'. So, it seems the: 'Eh, costs too much for a new light and signal programming... drivers will just have to figure it out' is how they came to be.
Are these traffic lights usually managed at the municipal, county, or state level?
I've lived here 29 years and I will say that there are far more protected left signals now than when I first came here. (At that time I sometimes wondered if NJ signal makers even knew how to make an arrow at all.) But I really think that the "delayed green" thing should also have notice to the side with the "accelerated green" (or some term that everyone might have a chance of understanding.) Otherwise it is still a case of TAKING right-of-way (i.e. a 'Jersey Left') which is fundamentally incorrect. The famous quote is that right-of-way is something to be YIELDED, not something to be TAKEN. Unfortunately that thought seems to be lost on most drivers.
dk50b said:
Having done lots of driving in the most densely developed part of the most densely populated state, I've gotta say there are many places where you can travel for a long time and never see a major, identified highway.
Probably true... but now that I have a GPS, I haven't had the opportunity to test it.
Back in my high school driving years, I was a year older than by boyfriend, so he didn't have his drivers license yet. A few times we went out, we had no plans, so we would just drive around for a few hours: He'd try to get us lost (take a right here... left here... etc.), then I'd see if I could find our way home.
Probably a dangerous game pre-GPS. (Although I *think* we had a map in the car). But, always made it back by curfew.
There are some intersections that although there is no green arrow (just a regular green light), the left turn does have 'right of way' for a short time. At these intersections, it is not made obvious to the driver, who is waiting to take a left, that the oncoming traffic has a red light (delayed green) for some time.
Why do these 'missing the green arrow' traffic light systems exist? Is it that difficult to add a green arrow?
For example:
Any other of these 'secret left' intersections around?
I tried googling other instances of these in NJ, or why they exist, or if it helps to request changes, etc, but I'm coming up empty.