Wolf Hall on BBC/PBS

I liked the first hour a lot, but I can't see how anyone who has not read the book would be able to follow it.

It was easy for me, but I was a Tudor/Stuart historian once upon a time. So I have no idea how it would go over with people who don't know anything. (And I have NOT read the books.)

Still, don't most people know at least the basics of Henry VIII, Catherine of Aragon, and Anne Boleyn? And most people have at least heard of Wolsey, Cromwell, and Thomas More.

But like I said, I know too much to be able to picture how easy it would be for most. I guess that's why it is showing on PBS/BBC. They assume a certain amount of background knowledge or patience to figure things out or look them up? (Come to think of it, it's not THAT hard to check Wikipedia for the events of that period.)

And I didn't say so, but I loved the first episode. I think it is a great reinterpretation of the great men of that time as ordinary human beings with various motivations and life issues.

Hadn't read the book, either, but I have read a good bit about English history, so I was familiar with the basics. I found the cutting back in forth in time a bit confusing at first, but then it was not a problem.
The settings and costumes are wonderful and I am very much enjoying the music they have used in the production. So happy to be able to see it on PBS where it WON'T be constantly chopped up for commercials.

I did look up the cause of death of Cromwell's wife and children, since I wasn't familiar with that. I'd always figured it was one of the plague outbreaks that recurred during this time period, but the source I looked at called it the "sweating sickness" and said it wasn't the plague, no one is quite sure what it was (some supposition that it was a virulent form of some hantavirus) - it apprently killed very quickly, within less than a day. But it said it didn't usually strike children. While Cromwell's daughter did not survive their childhood, I didn't see a reference that showed they died at the same time as their mother. @PeggyC, do you have any more info on this? When I finish knitting my orange ribbon (the tree has a 50" circumference and I've only knit 40" so far - I shouldn't have used size 8 needles), I'm going to do a little more research.

I thought they had died at the same time, although my memory is fuzzy. Also I think he has two other children: A son, Geoffrey, who becomes the first Baron Cromwell, and an illegitimate daughter, Jane.

Mantel's amazing books seem based on the Cromwell biographied by Geoffrey Elton in The Tudor Revolution, where he is the master plotter of all things Reformation ... at least for a while.

This thread is not promising. . . perhaps my wife will watch this by herself


I will at least check out the first episode to find out for myself.

Here's another way to look at it, from USA Today:

" 'This is a very modern tale of political intrigue and manipulation in the halls of power, something we can relate to,' says [Damian] Lewis, who plays a younger, more athletic Henry than the one often seen in paintings. Cromwell, too, connects to modern times as 'an upwardly mobile talent of lower birth. He's like (Henry's) consigliere.' "

http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/tv/2015/04/03/mark-rylance-and-damian-lewis-star-in-pbs-wolf-hall/70777690/

Slate descibed it as "Downton Abbey meets Breaking Bad."

Henry VIII was said to be a rather godlike young man, until he started to gain weight. And I suspect most of the paintings come from later periods, when his power was at its peak.

I'd never heard anything about the deaths of Cromwell's family, but I was really upset by it in the show. I'll have to look that up. I imagine there's a lot of activity on Google today about this show's characters!

There was an interesting program on PBS last night, Inside the Court of Henry VIII.

http://www.pbs.org/program/inside-court-henry-viii/

I thought it was beautifully done. I enjoyed it. I have not read the books but I am quite familiar with the history and the period. I had no trouble following the story.

The reviews of the book that I have read criticize the fictionalization of history, particularly the recasting of Cromwell as a sensitive hero and More as a villain. That bothers me as well, but I enjoyed it anyway.

Except that you can easily read Thomas More as a villain. The movie "A Man for All Seasons" portrays him as a saint, and he was actually named one by the Catholic church, but he wasn't all that wonderful in reality. For one thing, he was responsible for the burning of many heretics. All we know of the people in that period comes from accounts written during their lives or after their deaths by people who may have had an ax to grind. No historian from that period was completely unbiased. So I'm not sure what the reviewer was basing that opinion on.

Heretics were burned in this period. That wasn't really questioned, just the definition of heresy.

Schama and Starkey have panned either the book(s) or the show for not meshing with primary sources pertinent to Cranmer. The series may be visually impressive, but I'm not too eager to watch it until I'm in the mood for lots of yelling at the screen.

SouthernBaron, I really hope you will watch (and/or read), and comment here. Personally, I enjoyed the books very much, but except for the bare bones, I have no idea what's accurate in them (or at least plausible).

Same here, mjc. I mainly read them for the interior thought process of Cromwell, the intrigue, and the beautiful writing. I was always aware that Mantel had a very particular slant on both Cromwell and More and saw them mainly as vehicles for her to explore human venality and power and their intersection with more or less heartfelt religious conviction. She plays More a lot more subtly than one may take from the first show, presenting his beliefs as deeply held and making the argument that he really believed that he was doing the Lord's work. And she shows Cromwell as having at strong hand in moving the Reformation forward, not just as a utilitarian and proto-capitalist improvement over Catholicism but also as a true reflection of how he saw humans and God interacting.

I'll see if I can get around to it. Oh, and did I say Cranmer...? Uh, well, maybe he shows up too! He entered my head when I mentioned burning, no doubt. A Jesuit church (now Oratorian) was eventually built not far from his memorial in Oxford. He can't have been pleased.

I saw that historian Eamon Duffy didn't much like Wolf Hall, either, which wasn't surprising; his career-long argument, which I've found convincing, is that most of the English didn't wholeheartedly embrace the Reformation or see it as a step forward, but rather that it was a traumatic iconoclasm for the majority of people. Elizabeth managed to strike a broad church that encompassed most people and permitted the traditions without the Roman oversight, but stuff still wasn't settled, or I wouldn't have anything to say about the next century! Examples of people who kept the Roman paraphernalia hidden, only to pull it out again (happily) at Mary's accession, seem to support that. And then in the 1630s when Archbishop Laud attempted his "ceremonialist" revival, there were still Catholic bits hidden in cupboards and under floorboards, ready for use again, albeit in the Church of England. Not everybody liked that, of course, and then there was a civil war, for a variety of reasons but that was a big part.

Sorry for the TL;DR... Short version, if this plays out as a sort of Anglican triumphalism, well, that may be how Cromwell saw it, but my opinion of him has always been more cynical. I'll let y'all know if I watch.

Two words: Priest's hole.

I agree completely that most of the English population remained Catholic in their hearts and private practice, while trying to maintain the appearance of whatever religion was in ascendance at any given time. The times must have been absolutely maddening for all concerned. The Tudor/Stuart kings and queens bounced back and forth between Catholicism and Protestantism like so many ping-pong balls, and everyone suffered the consequences.

It's interesting to speculate that, if Catherine of Aragon had not been so adamant about remaining Henry's wife, much of the horror that stemmed from her battle with him would not have happened. If she had entered a convent, as many royal women did and as Henry and the pope suggested, and Henry had therefore been free to remarry, the English Reformation would have taken place VERY differently, and the break with Rome would probably never have occurred.

Henry was definitely NOT at his best when he was pushed into a corner. And no nation or society changes its dominant religion overnight.

Didn't Catherine eventually go to a convent? Answering my own question thanks to Google, she lived out her days in banishment at Kimberton Castle. She is said to haunt it, even today.

I don't think so. Henry ordered her to live in first one house (read: castle or palace) after another away from court, to suit his needs and depending on how angry he was with her at any given time. But I am pretty sure she never did go into a convent. She died at Kimbolton Castle in Huntingdonshire, most likely of cancer. If she had gone into a convent, it would have amounted to admitting defeat, and she was a very determined woman. I've often wondered what would have become of her if she had given up much sooner. I'd like to think Henry would have treated her better than he did if she had been less adamant, but there's no way of knowing.

Anyone have an idea how long the first episode will be available on pbs.org? I haven't watched PBS online before, and don't know their usual drill.

I don't know. This is the first time I have needed to watch an episode online, so I have no idea how long they do it. Does the website say?

aha, "expires 05/03" 11:59 pm ET

thanks for nudge : )

It's gorgeous to watch. I want to wear all of the hats!

I love the patterns of sunlight and shadow in the palaces/castles.

Yes, the cinematography of this show is extraordinary, particularly the light. It really puts you into the time period, doesn't it? And the costumes are fabulous.

When Thomas Cromwell's wife lay dead on her bed she looked like a mortuary sculpture.

I loved how he showed his grief so eloquently but so quietly. Very British.