DUMP TRUMP (previously 2020 candidates)

basil said:
So when are the next debates?

 July 30th.

drummerboy said:
nan,
In your estimation, if Bernie were elected, when would we get M4A?

 Can't say. He would be looking to get it through on Day 1. There is a 4 year roll out. Realistically, it won't be overnight. 

nan said:

drummerboy said:
nan,
In your estimation, if Bernie were elected, when would we get M4A?

 Can't say. He would be looking to get it through on Day 1. There is a 4 year roll out. Realistically, it won't be overnight. 

When do you think the 4 year roll out would start?

drummerboy said:
When do you think the 4 year roll out would start?

 This is obviously a trick question.  You know as well as I do.

Mike Gravel qualified for the next debate! (https://twitter.com/MikeGravel) He's 88 years old and talks like Bernie without any filter  -whatsoever. He's more anti-war than Tulsi.  The Gravelanche is coming!

Gravel says he has reached donor threshold for primary debates

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/452904-gravel-campaign-say-it-has-reached-donor-threshold-for-primary-debates

Are These Teenagers Really Running a Presidential Campaign? Yes. (Maybe.)

The retired senator Mike Gravel gave two young fans his Twitter password and permission to campaign in his name. It might be a stunt — or the future of politics.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/06/magazine/mike-gravel-teens-twitter-presidential-campaign.html

nan said:

drummerboy said:
When do you think the 4 year roll out would start?

 This is obviously a trick question.  You know as well as I do.

 It's not a trick question. I want to know when you expect M4A to be passed. Since it's by far the most important issue to you, you must have some reasonable expectation as to when we would get it, otherwise you're just wasting your time, aren't you?

You judge every other candidate on their M4A position. It's make or break for you. You rail against anyone, MOL poster or Presidential candidate, who dares talk about any other approach. It's M4A or nothing for you. You've been beating us over the head with it for months now.

Yet, it's obvious that M4A doesn't have a chance of becoming law for the long foreseeable future, under the most optimistic circumstances.

Why die on that hill for a pipe dream?

Nan, are you imagining us passing Medicare for All with 8 or 9 Republican Senate votes or are you thinking that we will flip 10 Senate seats in 2020 (without losing any of our current seats)?

Vermont has a Republican governor which means will lose Bernie’s seat if he is elected President, so that would actually be 9 or 10 Republican votes we would need, if we don’t pick any up. 

Klinker said:
Nan, are you imagining us passing Medicare for All with 8 or 9 Republican Senate votes or are you thinking that we will flip 10 Senate seats in 2020 (without losing any of our current seats)?


Vermont has a Republican governor which means will lose Bernie’s seat if he is elected President, so that would actually be 9 or 10 Republican votes we would need, if we don’t pick any up. 

 Medicare for All is also popular with Republicans. People in dire straights want it. This is why we will need to get in the streets. Bernie will hold rallies. Corp. Dems are also opposed so it will take strong, determined leadership. You all sound programmed to roll over. It will be a huge fight and everyone will need to be on-board. We can at least try. You don't get anything if you don't demand it.

Klinker said:

Vermont has a Republican governor which means will lose Bernie’s seat if he is elected President, so that would actually be 9 or 10 Republican votes we would need, if we don’t pick any up. 

Just as a point of order, VT governors serve two year terms elected in even numbered years (therefore, there will be a gubernatorial election in 2020 in VT). More importantly, VT fills Senate vacancies by special election, not appointment. 

nan said:

Klinker said:
Nan, are you imagining us passing Medicare for All with 8 or 9 Republican Senate votes or are you thinking that we will flip 10 Senate seats in 2020 (without losing any of our current seats)?


Vermont has a Republican governor which means will lose Bernie’s seat if he is elected President, so that would actually be 9 or 10 Republican votes we would need, if we don’t pick any up. 

 Medicare for All is also popular with Republicans. People in dire straights want it. This is why we will need to get in the streets. Bernie will hold rallies. Corp. Dems are also opposed so it will take strong, determined leadership. You all sound programmed to roll over. It will be a huge fight and everyone will need to be on-board. We can at least try. You don't get anything if you don't demand it.

 Its not popular with people who vote in Republican primaries and, in Red States, those are the only people who matter.

Which 10 Republicans do you think are most likely to vote for Medicare for All?  If Corporate Democrats are opposed to it, will we lose some Democratic Senators?  Will we need more than 10 Republican votes?  How many Democrats do you think we will lose and which Republican Senators do you think will take their place?

These are serious questions that will have to be answered if we are even to imagine this bill becoming law between 2020 and 2024 (and, given Bernie's age and the problems inherent in lame duck presidencies, that is the time frame we are looking at).

If your contention is that we have to vote for Bernie because he will and can make Medicare for All the law of the land, you need to explain the electoral mechanics of how he is going to do that.

I, for one, would be VERY interested to see a list of the Republican Senators you think might be willing to vote yes for this bill. I am reminded of the fact that, in spite of a huge effort to recruit GOP votes for what was essentially a Republican health care bill, Obama (coming into office with a significant mandate) was unable to convince a single Republican to support his plan.

Bernie Sanders doesn't have to be President to lead a campaign for M4A, just as Dr. King didn't have to be President to lead the Civil Rights Movement. That's jus one example.

SCOTUS might declare the ACA Unconstitutional, so even if M4A can pass the House, Senate and be signed by the President it might take years after that until the make-up of SCOTUS changes or an Amendment to the Constitution is adopted.

Nan, if you need somewhere to get started, here is a list of the current GOP Senators.

https://www.republicanleader.senate.gov/senate-resources/republican-senators

Which 10 members of this rogues gallery do you think Bernie will, using the unique talents that only he has, be able to convert to the cause of Medicare for All?

LOST said:
Bernie Sanders doesn't have to be President to lead a campaign for M4A, just as Dr. King didn't have to be President to lead the Civil Rights Movement. That's jus one example.
SCOTUS might declare the ACA Unconstitutional, so even if M4A can pass the House, Senate and be signed by the President it might take years after that until the make-up of SCOTUS changes or an Amendment to the Constitution is adopted.





The re-election of Trump almost guarantees that we will not ever have M4A, or perhaps achieve it in 75-100 years.

 He does need to be President so he has the most power to confront the insurance companies. Also, hehas other policies besides M4A. He would be a great President and he can beat Trump. Too bad the MSM and Dem establishment would rather have Trump so they do nothing but smear him. 

Klinker said:
Nan, if you need somewhere to get started, here is a list of the current GOP Senators.
https://www.republicanleader.senate.gov/senate-resources/republican-senators

Which 10 members of this rogues gallery do you think Bernie will, using the unique talents that only he has, be able to convert to the cause of Medicare for All?

 So, what is your plan? Just give up and continue with Obamacare 2.0, with lots of people dying and going bankrupt? Remember gay marriage? No one thought that would happen. Women got the vote, too. When people stop accepting the crumbs the are given and demand real change, the chances increase.

Of course I don’t want to give up but you said that Bernie is the only candidate who can pass Medicare for All. If the bill is to pass, at least 9 or 10 of these Republicans are going to have to vote for it. If Bernie can’t do that, then the primary reason you have given for choosing him over Warren disappears. 

nan said:

Remember gay marriage? No one thought that would happen. 

It happened because of a court case, not because 10 Republican Senators voted for it. If you tried to pass a gay marriage bill through the Senate today it would fail. 

Klinker said:

nan said:Remember gay marriage? No one thought that would happen. 

It happened because of a court case, not because 10 Republican Senators voted for it. If you tried to pass a gay marriage bill through the Senate today it would fail. 

 Those were the good old days.  

The Bernie folks (AOC is an exception) don't seem to understand the importance of local politics.  You need a party (hello!) and not be an "independent" to really make things happen in Congress.

So, if Bernie will not be able to convince Ted Cruz and John Cornyn (plus another 8 GOP Senators) to support Medicare for All, what then is the argument for Sanders over Warren?

Klinker said:
So, if Bernie will not be able to convince Ted Cruz and John Cornyn (plus another 8 GOP Senators) to support Medicare for All, what then is the argument for Sanders over Warren?

OMG, now you are going to get 1,000 more videos. What have you done?

basil said:

Klinker said:
So, if Bernie will not be able to convince Ted Cruz and John Cornyn (plus another 8 GOP Senators) to support Medicare for All, what then is the argument for Sanders over Warren?

OMG, now you are going to get 1,000 more videos. What have you done?

Sanders works well with Republicans as demonstrated by his work with Mike Lee in the senate and this Republican from Texas (1 video--don't exaggerate) who worked with Bernie on climate change: 

Klinker said:
It happened because of a court case, not because 10 Republican Senators voted for it. If you tried to pass a gay marriage bill through the Senate today it would fail. 

 Ok, then the vietnam war ended partially because of all the protesting. You can wait forever for a corporate Dem to give you single-payer.  It will only come if we have leadership that believes in it too, supported by a demanding public.  Republicans also want Medicare for All and more of them will want it if they find out the real details, not those supplied by the insurance companies.

nan said:

Republicans also want Medicare for All and more of them will want it if they find out the real details, not those supplied by the insurance companies.

 Great. So which 10 Republican Senators do you think are going to vote for it?  It all comes down to math, Nan. 

nan said:

Klinker said:
It happened because of a court case, not because 10 Republican Senators voted for it. If you tried to pass a gay marriage bill through the Senate today it would fail. 

 Ok, then the vietnam war ended partially because of all the protesting. You can wait forever for a corporate Dem to give you single-payer.  It will only come if we have leadership that believes in it too, supported by a demanding public.  Republicans also want Medicare for All and more of them will want it if they find out the real details, not those supplied by the insurance companies.

 Do you think people are going to march in the streets for single-payer?

nan said:

 more of them will want it if they find out the real details, not those supplied by the insurance companies.

 I am reminded of the following quote from Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince:

“But for heaven's sake — you're wizards! You can do magic! Surely you can sort out — well — anything!” Scrimgeour turned slowly on the spot and exchanged an incredulous look with Fudge, who really did manage a smile this time as he said kindly, “The trouble is, the other side can do magic too, Prime Minister.”

It's not like the insurance industry is going to sit quietly by and let themselves be made obsolete.  For every dollar we spend telling people how Medicare for All will improve their lives, the other side will be spending a one hundred.  And they won't feel obligated to tell the truth, either.  The stuff the right will throw out there this time will put Obamacare's "Death Panels" to shame.  By the time the right gets done with it, the average voter in a red state will think that a vote for medicare for all is a vote for eating babies.

So tell me, with all of that, which 10 Republican Senators is Bernie going to get to vote for Medicare for all?

drummerboy said:

nan said:

Klinker said:
It happened because of a court case, not because 10 Republican Senators voted for it. If you tried to pass a gay marriage bill through the Senate today it would fail. 

 Ok, then the vietnam war ended partially because of all the protesting. You can wait forever for a corporate Dem to give you single-payer.  It will only come if we have leadership that believes in it too, supported by a demanding public.  Republicans also want Medicare for All and more of them will want it if they find out the real details, not those supplied by the insurance companies.

 Do you think people are going to march in the streets for single-payer?

People marched in the streets against Obamacare in a fair number of places. The backlash against this will make the Tea Party look like a tempest in a toilet.

Which is not to say that we shouldn't try.  Its just important to understand the odds. This will not be a battle of days, it will be a war fought across decades.  The funny thing is that, for all his rhetoric, Bernie understands that as much as the other guys.  Like Moses, I think he knows he won't reach the promised land.

Klinker said:
People marched in the streets against Obamacare in a fair number of places. The backlash against this will make the Tea Party look like a tempest in a toilet.
Which is not to say that we shouldn't try.  Its just important to understand the odds. This will not be a battle of days, it will be a war fought across decades.  The funny thing is that, for all his rhetoric, Bernie understands that as much as the other guys.  Like Moses, I think he knows he won't reach the promised land.

 No, he intends to win.  Having been an activist since his 20's, he knows how real change gets done.  No one is saying it will be easy, but we have a better chance with a guy who is funded by the people, than one who takes money from the insurance companies.  We will never get Medicare for All with a politician who takes money from insurance companies. 

Klinker said:

nan said:

Republicans also want Medicare for All and more of them will want it if they find out the real details, not those supplied by the insurance companies.

 Great. So which 10 Republican Senators do you think are going to vote for it?  It all comes down to math, Nan. 

 When you try to persuade, or change minds, do you reasonably believe that decision makers are going to give-up long held beliefs instaneously and all at the same time.  IMHO, this is not a reasonable expectation.  Big changes usually involve long slogs and patience.

Let me know where you think I am not understanding this properly.

Klinker said:
If your contention is that we have to vote for Bernie because he will and can make Medicare for All the law of the land, you need to explain the electoral mechanics of how he is going to do that.
I, for one, would be VERY interested to see a list of the Republican Senators you think might be willing to vote yes for this bill. I am reminded of the fact that, in spite of a huge effort to recruit GOP votes for what was essentially a Republican health care bill, Obama (coming into office with a significant mandate) was unable to convince a single Republican to support his plan.

 How is "your contention" different than "you allege"?

IMHO, Tu-May-Toe or Tuh-Maw-Too.

Gay Rights, Women's Suffrage, Civil Rights, an end to the Vietnam War did not come about because a candidate for President ran promising I and got elected and enacted it.

Those things happened as a result of mass movements of the people.

All of the leading Dem Candidates support M4A in some form or another so while both those who support Bernie and those who oppose him don't see it perhaps Bernie has already won.