DUMP TRUMP (previously 2020 candidates)
Klinker said:
This is thread drift but I am curious. How much of a role did the protests really play in ending the Vietnam War? My understanding was that, by 1972, the protests had really died down. Nixon campaigned on ending the war but I don't think he was really appealing to the protesters for their votes.
I was two years old at that time so I don't have any first hand memories of events. Can anyone offer me their opinions on the matter?
(it goes without saying that videos need not apply)
Here is Tom Hayden talking in 2015.
The Forgotten Power of the Vietnam Protest, 1965-1975
The Pentagon Papers came out in 1971 and they were as effective as the protests in turning people against the war. I went to college in the late 70's and it was still common to have large protests and taking over of buildings, although not against the Vietnam War.
Also, for those that are interested a video giving you a sense of how intense the protests were.
Cory Booker getting challenged at an event with q question about human rights -
Yesterday, we asked @CoryBooker “Do you believe the Occupation is a human rights crisis for Palestinians?” He got visibly frustrated.
He admits: “If that's your issue I would understand if you want to support somebody else”
Looks like he’s choosing @AIPAC over the grassroots.
https://twitter.com/IfNotNowOrg/status/1150392483467202560
nan said:
Cory Booker getting challenged at an event with q question about human rights -
Yesterday, we asked @CoryBooker “Do you believe the Occupation is a human rights crisis for Palestinians?” He got visibly frustrated.
He admits: “If that's your issue I would understand if you want to support somebody else”
Looks like he’s choosing @AIPAC over the grassroots.
https://twitter.com/IfNotNowOrg/status/1150392483467202560
I watched the clip the first time with no sound and the captioning out of the frame. No frustration that I could see.
The future of news.
DaveSchmidt said:
I watched the clip the first time with no sound and the captioning out of the frame. No frustration that I could see.
The future of news.
It has sound. Click on the sound icon. The future of news includes sound.
Good one! The point, of course, is that a group that describes Booker as being visibly frustrated in that encounter can’t be trusted.
nan said:
Klinker said:Here is Tom Hayden talking in 2015.
This is thread drift but I am curious. How much of a role did the protests really play in ending the Vietnam War? My understanding was that, by 1972, the protests had really died down. Nixon campaigned on ending the war but I don't think he was really appealing to the protesters for their votes.
I was two years old at that time so I don't have any first hand memories of events. Can anyone offer me their opinions on the matter?
(it goes without saying that videos need not apply)
The Forgotten Power of the Vietnam Protest, 1965-1975
The Pentagon Papers came out in 1971 and they were as effective as the protests in turning people against the war. I went to college in the late 70's and it was still common to have large protests and taking over of buildings, although not against the Vietnam War.
Also, for those that are interested a video giving you a sense of how intense the protests were.
Tommy Haydon was in Newark for several years working as an organizer with the Newark Community Union Project. He had a mind that could analyze better than a computer.
When Newark exploded during the Rebellion if 1967............Victor Reisel, the noted labor reporter stated " Let the record show that Haydon was in the city of 400,000. when it exploded." Well crap,
so was I and a few hundred thousand others and we never got sited. Reisel had gone over to the dark side on that one.
nan said:Here is Tom Hayden talking in 2015.
Asking Tom Hayden about the anti war movement is a little like asking Charle Cornwallis about the Battle of Yorktown. There will be some interesting anecdotes but the account will not exactly be unbiased.
I was thinking more about how Gen X historians see the period and the reasons behind Nixon's decision to seek a settlement. My understanding is that the American decision to withdraw had a fair amount to do with the strategic situation in Europe and the Mideast as well as a general sense that America was overextended.
DaveSchmidt said:
nan said:I watched the clip the first time with no sound and the captioning out of the frame. No frustration that I could see.
Cory Booker getting challenged at an event with q question about human rights -
Yesterday, we asked @CoryBooker “Do you believe the Occupation is a human rights crisis for Palestinians?” He got visibly frustrated.
He admits: “If that's your issue I would understand if you want to support somebody else”
Looks like he’s choosing @AIPAC over the grassroots.
https://twitter.com/IfNotNowOrg/status/1150392483467202560
The future of news.
Booker and Israel reminds me of Obama and the gay marriage issue back in 08. You know they don't ACTUALLY believe in the policies that they are espousing but, politically, they have no choice. As the US Senator for New Jersey, anything other than lock step conformity with AIPAC would be political suicide for Booker.
Klinker said:
Asking Tom Hayden about the anti war movement is a little like asking Charle Cornwallis about the Battle of Yorktown. There will be some interesting anecdotes but the account will not exactly be unbiased.
I was thinking more about how Gen X historians see the period and the reasons behind Nixon's decision to seek a settlement. My understanding is that the American decision to withdraw had a fair amount to do with the strategic situation in Europe and the Mideast as well as a general sense that America was overextended.
No, I lived through that time and the anti-war movement had a huge effect. Perhaps, some try to minimize it later.
DaveSchmidt said:
Good one! The point, of course, is that a group that describes Booker as being visibly frustrated in that encounter can’t be trusted.
You have the video and presumably the sound on now. So, you do not have to rely on what you seem to feel is an unreliable narrator.
nan said:
Klinker said:No, I lived through that time and the anti-war movement had a huge effect. Perhaps, some try to minimize it later.
Asking Tom Hayden about the anti war movement is a little like asking Charle Cornwallis about the Battle of Yorktown. There will be some interesting anecdotes but the account will not exactly be unbiased.
I was thinking more about how Gen X historians see the period and the reasons behind Nixon's decision to seek a settlement. My understanding is that the American decision to withdraw had a fair amount to do with the strategic situation in Europe and the Mideast as well as a general sense that America was overextended.
Right. I was looking for the historical consensus, not personal anecdotes.
Klinker said:
Right. I was looking for the historical consensus, not personal anecdotes.
That is the historical consensus- here is how it is commonly taught (scroll down to Reading One: The Legacy of the Vietnam Anti-War Movement
https://www.morningsidecenter.org/teachable-moment/lessons/anti-war-movements-vietnam-today
nan said:
Klinker said:That is the historical consensus- here is how it is commonly taught (scroll down to Reading One: The Legacy of the Vietnam Anti-War Movement
Right. I was looking for the historical consensus, not personal anecdotes.
https://www.morningsidecenter.org/teachable-moment/lessons/anti-war-movements-vietnam-today
Who is the author? I scrolled down but I couldn’t find any attribution.
But really my question was addressed to the other posters since I already know your thoughts on the matter.
Besides, you must be quite busy compiling that list of the 10 GOP Senators that can be persuaded to vote for Medicare for All. Have you considered John Cornyn?
nan said:
Klinker said:No, I lived through that time and the anti-war movement had a huge effect. Perhaps, some try to minimize it later.
Asking Tom Hayden about the anti war movement is a little like asking Charle Cornwallis about the Battle of Yorktown. There will be some interesting anecdotes but the account will not exactly be unbiased.
I was thinking more about how Gen X historians see the period and the reasons behind Nixon's decision to seek a settlement. My understanding is that the American decision to withdraw had a fair amount to do with the strategic situation in Europe and the Mideast as well as a general sense that America was overextended.
The beginning of the end was the Tet Offensive which shattered the illusion that the war could be won. Walter Cronkite explaining that on nationwide TV doomed Johnaon's efforts. Also when the sons of the middle class began returning home in body bags.......the smoke and mirror charade was over.
author said:.
The beginning of the end was the Tet Offensive which shattered the illusion that the war could be won. Walter Cronkite explaining that on nationwide TV doomed Johnaon's efforts. Also when the sons of the middle class began returning home in body bags.......the smoke and mirror charade was over.
So, is that what turned the tide? Tet, Cronkite’s pronouncement and the mounting losses in middle America?
It’s relevant because Nan is telling us that if Bernie holds some protests, hard right men like Ted Cruz who have built their whole lives around their unyielding conservatism are going to vote for “socialized medicine”. I find that hard to believe.
Klinker said:
So, is that what turned the tide? Tet, Cronkite’s pronouncements and the mounting losses in middle America?
It relevant because Nan is telling us that if Bernie holds some protests, hard right men like Ted Cruz who have built their whole lives around their unyielding conservatism are going to vote for “socialized medicine”. I find that hard to believe.
AOC worked with Ted Cruz. Ted Cruz sucked up to Trump after Trump attacked his wife's looks. Ted Cruz is a sleazebag with no real moral compass. He will support Medicare for All if he needs to. People changed about the war and people will change about healthcare. Women used to be jailed and beaten for trying to vote. Few would support that today, even the worst of the Republicans. The world changes and it is not impossible to think that even Republicans would start to want Medicare for All and put pressure on their politicians to support. The idea of having no premiums, co-pays or deductibles and just going to any doctor you want is hard to argue against if your mom has cancer and no health insurance. People do not like seeing their loved ones suffering and unable to pay for treatment.
nan said:Women used to be jailed and beaten for trying to vote. Few would support that today, even the worst of the Republicans.
How long did that take? When did women first start campaigning for the vote on a national level and when did it actually happen? Did it happen all at once or did the movement go from state to state slowly gaining momentum?
You do realize that the other side will hold protests as well, don't you? What if the conservatives turn out 50,000 people in Charleston, West Virginia? How do you think that is going to effect Joe Manchin's vote?
Klinker said:
You do realize that the other side will hold protests as well, don't you? What if the conservatives turn out 50,000 people in Charleston, West Virginia? How do you think that is going to effect Joe Manchin's vote?
I doubt there will be many people protesting Medicare for All unless they are paid. There will be some, but I doubt it is going to be significant.
nan said:
Klinker said:I doubt there will be many people protesting Medicare for All unless they are paid. There will be some, but I doubt it is going to be significant.
You do realize that the other side will hold protests as well, don't you? What if the conservatives turn out 50,000 people in Charleston, West Virginia? How do you think that is going to effect Joe Manchin's vote?
You don't think FOX News will be able to enrage their viewers? Why?
These people vote against their own election in every election and they have done so for decades. What makes you think that is going to change now???
So, lets summarize. Bernie will be able to convince ten GOP Senators to support Medicare for All by holding some protests. The conservatives and the insurance industry, despite having an essentially unlimited war chest and complete control of the only media their constituents consume will be helpless in the face of these protests and will betray everything that they have ever stood for by voting for "socialized medicine".
What will be next? Will the Pope convert to Islam? Will the Queen declare that she has embraced Anarchism? Will a snowball thrive in Hell?
Klinker said:
So, lets summarize. Bernie will be able to convince ten GOP Senators to support Medicare for All by holding some protests. The conservatives and the insurance industry, despite having an essentially unlimited war chest and complete control of the only media their constituents consume will be helpless in the face of these protests and will betray everything that they have ever stood for by voting for "socialized medicine".
What will be next? Will the Pope convert to Islam? Will the Queen declare that she has embraced Anarchism? Will a snowball thrive in Hell?
No, there will be massive protests in favor of Medicare for All. Medicare for All will then come to pass. It's impossible to say the exact steps or how long it will take, but this is how change happens. You have to demand it. You can say it's all unicorns and ponies as Paul Krugman continually called Bernie in 2016. Then later Krugman said Medicare for All was a "reasonable position" for someone to take when it was someone else proposing it. Public opinion has changed and now the people delivering the message have softened. It's a process as was the Vietnam war. You heard nothing but support for the war and then there were massive protests and suddenly the analysis on TV was not so firm. It's a big shift happening and you can see the process starting with the people. There is a movement with a leader and they push the change and suddenly everyone agrees.
Of course we can just say this is all a waste of time and not bother and vote for some centrist Dem who will maybe try for the public option and then say the Republicans would not go for it so here is Obamacare back again but 40% higher than last time because of inflation, so then 60 million people are now without healthcare. Obamacare was unsustainable, and time will not make it better. Even if they do add the public option, it will still be too expensive for many.
Basically, we have no choice but to go for the guy who has the best chance of getting Medicare for All and then do our part to make it happen. There is really no other solution to the healthcare crisis. We have to fight like our lives depend on it, and they do.
nan said:
Cory Booker getting challenged at an event with q question about human rights -
Yesterday, we asked @CoryBooker “Do you believe the Occupation is a human rights crisis for Palestinians?” He got visibly frustrated.
He admits: “If that's your issue I would understand if you want to support somebody else”
Looks like he’s choosing @AIPAC over the grassroots.
https://twitter.com/IfNotNowOrg/status/1150392483467202560
OK, I think this woman who is challenging Cory Booker is part of a group going around to the candidates asking them to stand up against the Israeli occupation. Sanders and Warren supported the group from the beginning. Biden and Buttigeig switched previous positions suddenly to join, and Cory is not going there. Not sure about the others.
Pete Buttigieg and Joe Biden Condemn Israeli Occupation, as Young American Jews Urge Democrats to Press Israel
If you had any sense of history you would know that people fight like their lives depended on it all the time and lose. Indeed, when you are fighting entrenched power, that is the most common outcome.
So, ca we be clear on one thing? Are you actually arguing that the people who by and large believed Barack Obama was born in Africa are going to see through a billion dollar DONT EAT MY BABY campaign?
Klinker said:
author said:.So, is that what turned the tide? Tet, Cronkite’s pronouncement and the mounting losses in middle America?
The beginning of the end was the Tet Offensive which shattered the illusion that the war could be won. Walter Cronkite explaining that on nationwide TV doomed Johnaon's efforts. Also when the sons of the middle class began returning home in body bags.......the smoke and mirror charade was over.
It’s relevant because Nan is telling us that if Bernie holds some protests, hard right men like Ted Cruz who have built their whole lives around their unyielding conservatism are going to vote for “socialized medicine”. I find that hard to believe.
You bet whatever you value it turned the tide. Till that point the draft of only those who could not avoid it fueled the war machine. When the lottery system was put in place and the sons of Congressmen and Senators began to be drafted.............suddenly it was a whole new ball game.
Walter Cronkite was once called "the most trusted man in America". When he said the war could not be won........America listened. All the Generals who were still advocating a fixed position World
War 2 strategy were discredited..............by a bunch of little guys and woman who cut up bicycle tires to use as shoes and were tired of their country being occupied by the Japanese/French /Americans,
You bet whatever you value it turned the tide. Till that point the draft of only those who could not avoid it fueled the war machine. When the lottery system was put in place and the sons of Congressmen and Senators began to be drafted.............suddenly it was a whole new ball game.Bernie holds some protests, hard right men like Ted Cruz who have built their whole lives around their unyielding conservatism are going to vote for “socialized medicine”. I find that hard to believe.Click to Read MoreKlinker said:
author said:.So, is that what turned the tide? Tet, Cronkite’s pronouncement and the mounting losses in middle America?
The beginning of the end was the Tet Offensive which shattered the illusion that the war could be won. Walter Cronkite explaining that on nationwide TV doomed Johnaon's efforts. Also when the sons of the middle class began returning home in body bags.......the smoke and mirror charade was over.
It’s relevant because Nan is telling us that if Bernie holds some protests, hard right men like Ted Cruz who have built their whole lives around their unyielding conservatism are going to vote for “socialized medicine”. I find that hard to believe.
Walter Cronkite was once called "the most trusted man in America". When he said the war could not be won........America listened. All the Generals who were still advocating a fixed position World
War 2 strategy were discredited..............by a bunch of little guys and woman who cut up bicycle tires to use as shoes and were tired of their country being occupied by the Japanese/French /Americans,
Thanks author. That jives with what I’ve read as well.
There is an interesting article in today’s Times which argues that, even in a world where bussing was controversial, Joe Biden’s role in opposing it was exceptional. A very different narrative from the tale his campaign has been spinning about Biden surfing the zeitgeist.
Do they live in red states and vote in Republican primaries? Do they watch Fox News? Do they listen to Rush Limbaugh?