DUMP TRUMP (previously 2020 candidates)
nan said:
Smedley said:Bernie is not far left.
Obama/Trump voters are unlikely to go for Bernie because crossover voters are centrist and bernie is far left.
Well then your guy - at 77yo and with a full legislative career and a previous presidential run to his record — has a SERIOUS perception problem.
Smedley said:
nan said:Well then your guy - at 77yo and with a full legislative career and a previous presidential run to his record — has a SERIOUS perception problem.
Smedley said:Bernie is not far left.
Obama/Trump voters are unlikely to go for Bernie because crossover voters are centrist and bernie is far left.
https://www.businessinsider.com/2020-democratic-presidential-candidates-political-spectrum-ranking-2019-5
Being seen as far more liberal than most current Democratic candidates does not make Sanders "far left".
nan said:
Bernie is not far left. That is just a MSM talking point. He's an FDR dem and where the Democratic party used to be before they abandoned the working class. He opposed NAFTA and TPP, whereas Joe Biden supported them. That was a big Trump talking point during his campaigns. If Biden is the nominee, he will be calling him "NAFTA Joe" and it won't go well with that crowd.
Perhaps he is perceived as far left as he frequently refers to the need for a revolution. If you are a centrist dem from the center of the country, you may be less comfortable with the concept of a revolution. To us it may sound romantic but to them it may sound like a call to arms. Do centrist white suburban women want a revolution? The biggest swing voters are going to be women. Just keep talking a woman's right to chose, maybe gun control, perhaps climate change. That would be my strategy. Bernie could do a bit of that.
Morganna said:
Perhaps he is perceived as far left as he frequently refers to the need for a revolution. If you are a centrist dem from the center of the country, you may be less comfortable with the concept of a revolution. To us it may sound romantic but to them it may sound like a call to arms. Do centrist white suburban women want a revolution? The biggest swing voters are going to be women. Just keep talking a woman's right to chose, maybe gun control, perhaps climate change. That would be my strategy. Bernie could do a bit of that.
Over 50% of people want Medicare for All and his other policies such as GND, and free college are very popular. The base is further left than people think. Bernie is for a women's right to choose, gun control and of course climate change (GND). All the Dems support those things. Bernie actually wants to change things, unlike the others who will be practicing some form of incrementalism as we have had for decades without much to show.
I agree that some, especially the white middle-class who listen to MSNBC/CNN, are repelled by Sanders as they hear constant smears against him in the media and they are economically more comfortable and able to afford health insurance. But, the poor don't have time to watch much TV news and they are living a more precarious life, working two or more jobs and still barely getting by. Sanders is after these voters who outnumber the suburbanites. The problem with that group is that they often stay home instead of voting, but he is going all out to get them registered and excited enough to get off the couch. If he is successful, it will be a surprising upset to many.
I have been campaigning for Bernie, as I did in 2016. I'm seeing more enthusiasm among POC and people who work at traditional lower paying jobs like bus drivers, fast food workers and healthcare, etc. They are fist pumping, honking horns and asking for buttons and saying "Yes!" I have not yet campaigned in Maplewood, but I assume it will be similar to 2016 with Warren replacing Hillary as the favorite. It will be a bunch of thin, well-dressed moms just coming over to ask if I will be voting for the nominee when Bernie loses. Hopefully, I'm wrong, but we will see.
Smedley said:
Obama/Trump voters are unlikely to go for Bernie because crossover voters are centrist and bernie is far left.
Obama/Trump voters are not "centrists". They are barely conscience blobs of politically ignorant protoplasm who feel fit to pollute the electorate with their blinding ignorance. You can't target them as a potential vote because they don't even know why they vote the way they do.
ridski said:
Smedley said:Being seen as far more liberal than most current Democratic candidates does not make Sanders "far left".
nan said:Well then your guy - at 77yo and with a full legislative career and a previous presidential run to his record — has a SERIOUS perception problem.
Smedley said:Bernie is not far left.
Obama/Trump voters are unlikely to go for Bernie because crossover voters are centrist and bernie is far left.
https://www.businessinsider.com/2020-democratic-presidential-candidates-political-spectrum-ranking-2019-5
I’m surprised at the pushback on this, i thought far left was going muscularly and unapologetically far left for 2020?
nan - has Bernie picked up any new followers - if so where are they coming from? Where is he in motivating the black vote?
Smedley said:
I’m surprised at the pushback on this, i thought far left was going muscularly and unapologetically far left for 2020?
I've been looking for these positions on his platform, but I don't think they're there:
- Worker and community ownership and control of corporations within the framework of a decentralized and democratically determined economic plan.
- All financial and insurance institutions to be socially owned and operated by a democratically-controlled national banking authority, which should include credit unions, mutual insurance cooperatives, and cooperative state banks.
- Maximum income of no more than ten times the minimum.
- Cancellation of Third World debt.
- A National Pension Authority to hold the assets of private pension funds, and a levy against corporate assets for any pension fund deficits.
- Increased and expanded unemployment compensation at 100% of a worker's previous income or the minimum wage, whichever is higher, for the full period of unemployment or re-training.
- A 30-hour work week at no loss of pay, with six weeks annual paid vacation.
Anyone know where I can find these things on his platform? Is this what he's running as?
Is there a rundown where the candidates stand on eliminating the national debt?
jamie said:
Is there a rundown where the candidates stand on eliminating the national debt?
This would be useful, because any candidate who thinks this is a serious issue is immediately off my list.
Morganna said:
nan said:Perhaps he is perceived as far left as he frequently refers to the need for a revolution. If you are a centrist dem from the center of the country, you may be less comfortable with the concept of a revolution. To us it may sound romantic but to them it may sound like a call to arms. Do centrist white suburban women want a revolution? The biggest swing voters are going to be women. Just keep talking a woman's right to chose, maybe gun control, perhaps climate change. That would be my strategy. Bernie could do a bit of that.
Bernie is not far left. That is just a MSM talking point. He's an FDR dem and where the Democratic party used to be before they abandoned the working class. He opposed NAFTA and TPP, whereas Joe Biden supported them. That was a big Trump talking point during his campaigns. If Biden is the nominee, he will be calling him "NAFTA Joe" and it won't go well with that crowd.
Good point. I don’t know how Bernie can call for a revolution and not be far left. Is he only calling for a limited or partial revolution?
drummerboy said:
Obama/Trump voters are not "centrists". They are barely conscience blobs of politically ignorant protoplasm who feel fit to pollute the electorate with their blinding ignorance. You can't target them as a potential vote because they don't even know why they vote the way they do.
Actually, there was a great article in the Times last year that contradicts what you say here. The people interviewed said they felt let down by Obama because of lack of interest in working class needs. However, when I looked for it to post, the NYT's had removed it so it's not available now:
They Voted for Obama, Then Went for Trump. Can Democrat
The point is that Bernie policies are hardly revolutionary and have pretty wide support among the electorate. It's pretty tepid, bog-standard liberalism.
nan said:
However, when I looked for it to post, the NYT's had removed it so it's not available now:
They Voted for Obama, Then Went for Trump. Can Democrat
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/04/us/obama-trump-swing-voters.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share
ETA: Sorry for the redundancy. Your link works, too.
nan said:
drummerboy said:Actually, there was a great article in the Times last year that contradicts what you say here. The people interviewed said they felt let down by Obama because of lack of interest in working class needs. However, when I looked for it to post, the NYT's had removed it so it's not available now:
Obama/Trump voters are not "centrists". They are barely conscience blobs of politically ignorant protoplasm who feel fit to pollute the electorate with their blinding ignorance. You can't target them as a potential vote because they don't even know why they vote the way they do.
They Voted for Obama, Then Went for Trump. Can Democrat
right, so in there super-sophisticated outlook, they though that Trump would deliver for them.
Sorry - my characterization still stands. Also, a Times article (among dozens where they went out and interviewed a handful of Trump voters) is hardly what you would call dispositive data.
OTOH - actual polling data shows that economic issues had little to do with picking Trump. As we've gone over a gazillion times.
ridski said:
Being seen as far more liberal than most current Democratic candidates does not make Sanders "far left".
People are quick to call Sanders and some others "far-left" but slow to admit that the Dems also have a far-right wing.
Why Can't the Media Admit the Democratic Party Has a Right Wing?
https://www.truthdig.com/articles/why-cant-the-media-admit-the-democratic-party-has-a-right-wing/
DaveSchmidt said:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/04/us/obama-trump-swing-voters.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share
ETA: Sorry for the redundancy. Your link works, too.
I get:
Server Error
We're sorry. there is a problem with the page you requested. We are investigating the error, please try again soon.
I will try logging into my Times account and see if that works better.
Edited to add: Tried logging into my Times account and also from an incognito window and it won't view. I'm using Chrome browser. What browser are you using?
Smedley said:
Good point. I don’t know how Bernie can call for a revolution and not be far left. Is he only calling for a limited or partial revolution?
Only a partial revolution because he's not calling for a mass nationalization of business such as big oil, banks, etc. He wants to take over health insurance only, not even the hospitals or doctors. He's also not as anti-war as he could be. You can go much further left than Bernie. He's a New-Deal Democrat. That used to be a standard issue democrat before they abandoned the working class for the professionals.
I've posted this many times before, but read Thomas Franks' book "Listen Liberal" or watch him speak here:
ridski said:
Being seen as far more liberal than most current Democratic candidates does not make Sanders "far left".
True. There's a significant portion of the political spectrum on the left that doesn't have much of a toe hold here. We don't talk much about government-provided healthcare, nationalization of industries and other private assets, a fully nationalized and no-cost higher education system or other more socialist ideas. The bell curve of the American political system leaves a lot of room on the left (although it's an asymptotic curve ... the number of far-left socialists is not zero).
jamie said:
nan - has Bernie picked up any new followers - if so where are they coming from? Where is he in motivating the black vote?
Bernie is pursing the votes of the disenfranchised voters, including working class and poor POC. He is doing great with the black vote also. I don't think these voters are reflected much on polls so he could surprise everyone. On the other hand, they could say they will vote for him and not get the time to do so or find their polling place. So, we will see. He's pushing voter registration drives. But, those are the voters he is most committed to representing, although his policies such as Medicare for All, free college and Green New Deal also help the middle class.
“Only a partial revolution” - Nan this goes to my earlier point that your guy has a perception problem. I was actually being facetious when I said limited or partial revolution because really there’s no such thing. It’s like being a little bit pregnant.
So you may be right that Bernie’s a measured candidate who’s not far left. But that’s not how he’s perceived. And if after all these decades he’s still perceived as a far left revolutionary, I don’t see how that perception changes in a matter of months in this campaign.
Smedley said:
“Only a partial revolution” - Nan this goes to my earlier point that your guy has a perception problem. I was actually being facetious when I said limited or partial revolution because really there’s no such thing. It’s like being a little bit pregnant.
So you may be right that Bernie’s a measured candidate who’s not far left. But that’s not how he’s perceived. And if after all these decades he’s still perceived as a far left revolutionary, I don’t see how that perception changes in a matter of months in this campaign.
He can't do much about the media perception of him because they view him as the enemy who must be stopped. Remember, Third Way, a major DNC think tank, funded by Wall Street, called him an "existential threat." In every townhall, or debate, his questions are framed specifically to trap him into saying something can be used as a negative headline the next day. The New York Times hired an unqualified writer specifically to write smear pieces about him using unqualified sources. The Washington Post once wrote 16 negative pieces in 16 hours and they are just as bad this cycle.
So, the fact that Bernie is still a front-runner is an amazing accomplishment and shows he has a strong base of support. His focus is on the working class and poor--many who have a positive view of him and don't watch much news (probably because they are working all the time or don't have access).
And, despite what I said about the media smearing him, people surprisingly still have a favorable view, although you know I am skeptical about polls, even ones that favor my candidates. Here is an article about a recent Gallop poll that found Sanders' had the most favorability of all 2020 candidates.
'This Man Can Beat Trump': Sanders Viewed Most Favorably of 2020 Democratic Candidates
New Gallup poll shows Sen. Bernie Sanders has better image than Joe Biden in eyes of Democratic voters
drummerboy said:
This would be useful, because any candidate who thinks this is a serious issue is immediately off my list.
Seriously?
Blame the media, yawn.
I hear Bernie call for a revolution with my own ears, unfiltered by the media, and it turns me off, because I don’t want a revolution. I’m sure I’m not the only non-Trump supporting voter out there who feels the same way.
basil said:
drummerboy said:Seriously?
This would be useful, because any candidate who thinks this is a serious issue is immediately off my list.
read my thread on Modern Monetary Theory and get some edumacation.
What do you think the threat of the deficit is? Be specific.
nan said:
The New York Times hired an unqualified writer specifically to write smear pieces about him using unqualified sources.
Sydney Ember is a political reporter for The New York Times based in New York. Before joining the politics team, she was a business reporter covering print and digital media.
Ms. Ember started hanging around The Times when she was in college and is glad she listened to David Carr's advice in 2009 to start a blog if she wanted to become a journalist. She owes her career to Mr. Carr and will forever be grateful for everything he did for her. She officially joined The Times in 2014 as DealBook's morning newsletter writer.
DaveSchmidt said:
nan said:Sydney Ember is a political reporter for The New York Times based in New York. Before joining the politics team, she was a business reporter covering print and digital media.
The New York Times hired an unqualified writer specifically to write smear pieces about him using unqualified sources.
Ms. Ember started hanging around The Times when she was in college and is glad she listened to David Carr's advice in 2009 to start a blog if she wanted to become a journalist. She owes her career to Mr. Carr and will forever be grateful for everything he did for her. She officially joined The Times in 2014 as DealBook's morning newsletter writer.
https://www.nytimes.com/by/sydney-ember
Do you suppose your post somehow disproves nan's contention?
drummerboy said:
Do you suppose your post somehow contradicts nan's post?
It sounds like she was hired in 2014 specifically to write DealBook’s morning newsletter.
Smedley said:
Obama/Trump voters are unlikely to go for Bernie because crossover voters are centrist and bernie is far left.
Obama/Trump voters cannot be described or understood on a left-center-right axis. They are not swayed by ideology. As ml1 posted they vote based on "gut". Or to be charitable they vote "for the man, not the Party" or the policies.
There were Trump supporters who told pollsters that Bernie was there second choice.
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Bernie is not far left. That is just a MSM talking point. He's an FDR dem and where the Democratic party used to be before they abandoned the working class. He opposed NAFTA and TPP, whereas Joe Biden supported them. That was a big Trump talking point during his campaigns. If Biden is the nominee, he will be calling him "NAFTA Joe" and it won't go well with that crowd.