Abuse Testimony, but BOE Reappoints CHS Coach Anyway!
mammabear said:
Let me start by saying that I don't know a thing about this particular issue.
As a parent of a player -- a son whose love of the game trumps any expectations of playing time or athletic scholarships -- I find comments like this less helpful than the compelling arguments, on both sides, from people who do know something. To wit:
wendy said:
Again my opinion. Wendy Lauter
Thank you, Wendy, for your perspective. As @moose stated above, this is a complex situation. I've had a discussion with one father who spoke against the coaches, and another with one who spoke in favor. (My own experience has only really been with the current freshman coach.) Each made what I thought were sincere, provocative points that left me unable to write either one off as a coddler or, conversely, an apologist.
Feb 26, 2015 at 5:57am Edited
"Coach Fischetti didn't change (neither did Coach Becht) but clearly the caliber and maturity of the players changed".
I'm curious. What would be your reaction if you were watching Coach Fischetti's team and one of his baserunners gets picked off of first base. And then you watch as Coach Fischetti, with the inning still in progress, storms out of his coaching box along third base and greets the player who's returning to the bench by making him leave the bench and stand by himself away from the rest of the team over by a fence for the rest of the game, basically humiliating him in front of his teammates. Is that player's "caliber and maturity changed" from prior players? Or does the coach have emotional/anger issues that clearly need to be addressed?
The previous poster is right. Your conclusion is "naive and pretty insulting".
I'm curious. What would be your reaction if you were watching Coach Fischetti's team and one of his baserunners gets picked off of first base. And then you watch as Coach Fischetti, with the inning still in progress, storms out of his coaching box along third base and greets the player who's returning to the bench by making him leave the bench and stand by himself away from the rest of the team over by a fence for the rest of the game, basically humiliating him in front of his teammates. Is that player's "caliber and maturity changed" from prior players? Or does the coach have emotional/anger issues that clearly need to be addressed?
The previous poster is right. Your conclusion is "naive and pretty insulting".
DaveSchmidt said:
mammabear said:
Let me start by saying that I don't know a thing about this particular issue.
As a parent of a player -- a son whose love of the game trumps any expectations of playing time or athletic scholarships -- I find comments like this less helpful than the compelling arguments, on both sides, from people who do know something.
So because I don't know of this particular situation, my entire post is "less helpful"? Are you serious?
That is, what I find helpful to me, or not, is up to me to decide. And, yes, I'm serious about this topic.
Times have changed and more specific standards are now necessary. I think this is another area where "It's OK because that's the way it was for me" thinking has to go by the wayside.
We also must acknowledge the double standard that we apply to coaches. I'm not saying it's true here, but the difference between a coach regarded as an abusive bully and a "master motivator" often isn't behavior, but the coach's won-loss record.
Sports parenting has also changed. When I was young, the wall between the team/coaches and parents was nearly impenetrable. My friend's father coached in the same sport that we played, but at a much higher level. My high-school coach was newer to the sport and would readily acknowledge that my friend's father knew ten times as much about the game, but still, there was never any input sought or provided. Likewise, I didn't share with my parents how my coach would mock me and yo-yo me randomly between varsity and JV.
Now, getting to the level of playing high-school sports often involves a long-term family investment of time and significant funds. Families feel as if they did everything they were supposed to: paid thousands of dollars for extra coaching; ingrained themselves with the right traveling teams going back to age 9, left work early, made the 6 a.m. drives, sold the t-shirts, went to the coaches' preferred camps (often their own), etc. After all of this, when the desired result isn't achieved, it's just not a matter of sympathy for a disappointed child, but the type of outrage and betrayal you feel when someone absconds with a valuable asset of yours.
We also must acknowledge the double standard that we apply to coaches. I'm not saying it's true here, but the difference between a coach regarded as an abusive bully and a "master motivator" often isn't behavior, but the coach's won-loss record.
Sports parenting has also changed. When I was young, the wall between the team/coaches and parents was nearly impenetrable. My friend's father coached in the same sport that we played, but at a much higher level. My high-school coach was newer to the sport and would readily acknowledge that my friend's father knew ten times as much about the game, but still, there was never any input sought or provided. Likewise, I didn't share with my parents how my coach would mock me and yo-yo me randomly between varsity and JV.
Now, getting to the level of playing high-school sports often involves a long-term family investment of time and significant funds. Families feel as if they did everything they were supposed to: paid thousands of dollars for extra coaching; ingrained themselves with the right traveling teams going back to age 9, left work early, made the 6 a.m. drives, sold the t-shirts, went to the coaches' preferred camps (often their own), etc. After all of this, when the desired result isn't achieved, it's just not a matter of sympathy for a disappointed child, but the type of outrage and betrayal you feel when someone absconds with a valuable asset of yours.
You callister and suetonius (whoever the heck you are) have the right to call my conclusion naive and pretty insulting. I think it's pretty funny that you perceive it as such given that we're talking about perceptions of how coaches are talking to their players and some folks think how they have dealt with the players have been fine and some don't, including a whole lot of past players who are totally supportive of these coaches. The fact that you think my son was treated any differently was laughable. He along with his teammates had tough coaches throughout their careers in high school and became the most winning team in recent years. Only after the fact did I hear how tough these coaches were to all of them. These things stayed in the locker room where they belonged. My only point in raising that there were no public complaints when Fischetti was a freshman coach is at least that would have made more sense of a freshman needing to go their parent rather than dealing with it internally. My son's team lost some bad games and were told to run bases and yelled at plenty. That's sports NOT BULLYING.
Wendy Lauter
So much of what was said even in gym class was taken out of context I think. And that's all I can have, is my own opinion based on my years of being with the team and all parents associated with the team for 4 years. Wendy Lauter
Wendy Lauter
So much of what was said even in gym class was taken out of context I think. And that's all I can have, is my own opinion based on my years of being with the team and all parents associated with the team for 4 years. Wendy Lauter
wendy said:
Coach Fischetti didn't change (neither did Coach Becht) but clearly the caliber and maturity of the players changed.
This is off base in a Major League way.
Wendy Lauter (whoever the heck you are), what would your thoughts be regarding the situation I described in my post? Is that "yelling" or is that "bullying"?
@Wendy, of course you are entitled to your opinion, but what I and many other parents have witnessed with our own eyes by far exceeds what you are describing. Do with that information what you will.
Wendy...people and situations change. Maybe coach wasn't as comfortable with job security back then and held back? Maybe as he moved up he felt he could be more aggressive in his methods? Your posts don't allow for that...
i have no knowledge of what is going on with the baseball team but in general - as a coach of youth sports -
what we say to pre-high school players, ie the use of sharp language, the method of discipline, the techniques of motivation, should move into a more mature / adult style of communication.
I dont condone shaming in the manner identified above, I think its counter productive to getting the most out of your athletes and building a tight knit team that support each other. Its my belief that each member of a team has to be accountable to team rules and to keep themselves physically and mentally alert each game and practice. Yelling at a player is entirely acceptable, berating a player for a mental error or lack of hustle is in the moment acceptable - as long as what follows that communication is the teaching aspect, the rebuilding of the athletes ego by explaining what we expect as coaches and defining exactly what we didnt like that caused our "outburst". At least a 5 to 1 ratio of praise to criticism, is what I find works best with my teams.
Again I have no idea what the coaches at CHS do, just what I think is appropriate as a coach.
what we say to pre-high school players, ie the use of sharp language, the method of discipline, the techniques of motivation, should move into a more mature / adult style of communication.
I dont condone shaming in the manner identified above, I think its counter productive to getting the most out of your athletes and building a tight knit team that support each other. Its my belief that each member of a team has to be accountable to team rules and to keep themselves physically and mentally alert each game and practice. Yelling at a player is entirely acceptable, berating a player for a mental error or lack of hustle is in the moment acceptable - as long as what follows that communication is the teaching aspect, the rebuilding of the athletes ego by explaining what we expect as coaches and defining exactly what we didnt like that caused our "outburst". At least a 5 to 1 ratio of praise to criticism, is what I find works best with my teams.
Again I have no idea what the coaches at CHS do, just what I think is appropriate as a coach.
Regarding the pick off situation above, it's entirely possible the coach specifically told the player to take a short lead as the game situation dictated no need for a stolen base, with the player then taking an unnecessarily large lead and then getting picked. And perhaps this wasn't the first time that player didn't listen to coach's orders.
wendy said:
but clearly the caliber and maturity of the players changed.
At least this piece is true - there are players who are willing to stand up for themselves and their team mates against a bullying coach. That's character and maturity.
eliz said:
wendy said:
but clearly the caliber and maturity of the players changed.
At least this piece is true - there are players who are willing to stand up for themselves and their team mates against a bullying coach. That's character and maturity.
I hope you never sit on a jury. Calling him a bullying coach and ignoring all that was said in support of him at the meeting WHICH THE ARTICLE DID NOT COVER!
Sheesh.
Wendy Lauter
@Wendy, are you aware specifically what the issues are? Have you seen the multi-family complaint? Have you spoken to the players? You are seriously downplaying the situation, and drawing up your own scenarios about what happened.
My likely last comments here.
Apparently my statement about the caliber and maturity of the players have changed has struck a nerve to many. So be it. I am not however trying to be insulting to your sons.
A bit of explanation. My son's team was together for 4 years and I continued to follow the program after that. What I am trying to say is that it seems to me that much of what I'm hearing spoken of would not be discussed out of the locker room between players and coaches if those players were more mature and supported each other as a team. There was yelling back and forth all the time I hear.
In the above example suetonius gives, even if Fischetti got so angry he told a player to stand off to the side and not get picked off, is that a crime? No I don't think so and I don't think it's bullying either. But again, my opinion. In my son's freshman year, that exact thing happened (son at bat, someone on first got picked off, Fischetti coaching I think) and it ended a bid for a championship. If Fischetti had done that to the kid, even if it was mine, that would have indeed been embarrassing but not humiliating. I think a line is being drawn differently these days as someone above posted. For all you know he told the kid to stand by the fence NEAR HIM so he could learn letter the signals about things and about not getting picked off.
As far as @stevedalllas 's opinion about job security, that makes no sense. Fischetti was the freshman coach for many, many years and a PE teacher for longer (my son even had him at Tuscan) and has only been the varsity coach for a few years.
I hope Mr. Stern, the in house counsel Mr. Stern - not the parent, comes to the same conclusion that the board came to. To wit, not that it's much ado about nothing but it doesn't rise to a loss of an appointment.
Apparently my statement about the caliber and maturity of the players have changed has struck a nerve to many. So be it. I am not however trying to be insulting to your sons.
A bit of explanation. My son's team was together for 4 years and I continued to follow the program after that. What I am trying to say is that it seems to me that much of what I'm hearing spoken of would not be discussed out of the locker room between players and coaches if those players were more mature and supported each other as a team. There was yelling back and forth all the time I hear.
In the above example suetonius gives, even if Fischetti got so angry he told a player to stand off to the side and not get picked off, is that a crime? No I don't think so and I don't think it's bullying either. But again, my opinion. In my son's freshman year, that exact thing happened (son at bat, someone on first got picked off, Fischetti coaching I think) and it ended a bid for a championship. If Fischetti had done that to the kid, even if it was mine, that would have indeed been embarrassing but not humiliating. I think a line is being drawn differently these days as someone above posted. For all you know he told the kid to stand by the fence NEAR HIM so he could learn letter the signals about things and about not getting picked off.
As far as @stevedalllas 's opinion about job security, that makes no sense. Fischetti was the freshman coach for many, many years and a PE teacher for longer (my son even had him at Tuscan) and has only been the varsity coach for a few years.
I hope Mr. Stern, the in house counsel Mr. Stern - not the parent, comes to the same conclusion that the board came to. To wit, not that it's much ado about nothing but it doesn't rise to a loss of an appointment.
Wendy, my point is that people and situations change. You didn't hear about anything because it was in the locker room when your son was a part of the program. It appears that in subsequent years that stuff was taken outside the locker room, and got a bit nastier. It's not that hard to conceive.
DaveSchmidt said:
That is, what I find helpful to me, or not, is up to me to decide. And, yes, I'm serious about this topic.
I'm serious too. ;-)
If our high schoolers aren't exposed to shaming/bullying/different motivational techniques where they can learn and develop coping techniques as well as repair their self esteem on their own (with parental guidance), where do we expect it to happen? The workplace? College?
My knowledge of the problem is limited to what I heard at the BoE meeting. Which, from my vantage point, sounded A LOT like some dads who were upset that their kids aren't getting scholarships and/or playing time. There was an awful lot of talk about fears about reporting injuries during recruiting season (couched as 'personal health information') lack of scholarships, etc. Based on this info alone it sounds like Chalmers1 nailed the problem. These dads are upset that their kids aren't winning. Which was kind of nailed home when the one dad said to the effect of: "I'm pulling my son out of Columbia High School and sending him to Seton Hall Prep." and the other one said "we're getting lawyers involved with this". Really? Over high school baseball?!
I know none of the people involved and hope that some healing can take place.
My knowledge of the problem is limited to what I heard at the BoE meeting. Which, from my vantage point, sounded A LOT like some dads who were upset that their kids aren't getting scholarships and/or playing time. There was an awful lot of talk about fears about reporting injuries during recruiting season (couched as 'personal health information') lack of scholarships, etc. Based on this info alone it sounds like Chalmers1 nailed the problem. These dads are upset that their kids aren't winning. Which was kind of nailed home when the one dad said to the effect of: "I'm pulling my son out of Columbia High School and sending him to Seton Hall Prep." and the other one said "we're getting lawyers involved with this". Really? Over high school baseball?!
I know none of the people involved and hope that some healing can take place.
mammabear said:
We all the know the story about the Boy Who Cried Wolf, right? Sadly, there seems to be a decent population of perpetual complainers in this town. Some parents find fault with everything...and make a huge deal out of every issue that their kids face. Some are over-involved helicopter parents. Others are just entitled a$$wipes. Some just go from zero to sixty on any given topic and feel they are experts in all ways. Sure these people exist everywhere, but for whatever reason, it seems like Maplewood/South Orange houses a bigger population. I feel this constant squacking ruins it for the parents who have legitimate issues.
Of course, the problem is that reasonable adults don't always agree on what is a legitimate issue, and what is inappropriate fault-finding.
Your own issue (or mine), is, of course, always a "legitimate" issue, rather than the venting of a "perpetual complainer", isn't it? Odds are good that these parents feel that way too.
On the current issue, I'll only say two things, since I have no specific knowledge:
1. I'm glad it is being investigated by someone outside of the athletic department.
2. My special needs child had two middle school teachers who were particularly insensitive to her emotional and/or learning needs, including one case that I would call emotional bullying and one that I would call academic malpractice (refusal to comply with Special Ed plan). I have to wonder if it was coincidence that both were the coaches of high school sports teams. Is it possible that the style of "motivation" accepted in coaching was bleeding over into how they dealt with their classrooms and into the attitudes they took toward struggling students?
Feb 26, 2015 at 7:29am Edited
"For all you know he told the kid to stand by the fence NEAR HIM so he could learn letter the signals about things and about not getting picked off".
Uhhh..no. I was there. The kid wasn't standing anywhere near the coach so "he could learn better the signals about things...". After humiliating the kid the coach ignored him for the rest of the game. And, in case you're wondering, yes, my son was on that team, but no, he was not the one subjected to this demeaning treatment.
Uhhh..no. I was there. The kid wasn't standing anywhere near the coach so "he could learn better the signals about things...". After humiliating the kid the coach ignored him for the rest of the game. And, in case you're wondering, yes, my son was on that team, but no, he was not the one subjected to this demeaning treatment.
Facts, people. Facts. Know facts before you judge. Please don't jump to the "parents are whining because the team isn't winning" place. It's too easy. This is much more complex.
Feb 26, 2015 at 7:38am Edited
momof4peepers said:
If our high schoolers aren't exposed to shaming/bullying/different motivational techniques where they can learn and develop coping techniques as well as repair their self esteem on their own (with parental guidance), where do we expect it to happen? The workplace? College?
My knowledge of the problem is limited to what I heard at the BoE meeting. Which, from my vantage point, sounded A LOT like some dads who were upset that their kids aren't getting scholarships and/or playing time. There was an awful lot of talk about fears about reporting injuries during recruiting season (couched as 'personal health information') lack of scholarships, etc. Based on this info alone it sounds like Chalmers1 nailed the problem. These dads are upset that their kids aren't winning. Which was kind of nailed home when the one dad said to the effect of: "I'm pulling my son out of Columbia High School and sending him to Seton Hall Prep." and the other one said "we're getting lawyers involved with this". Really? Over high school baseball?!
I know none of the people involved and hope that some healing can take place.
Well said.
And how about responding @suetonius to another poster's assessment of the situation you described?
Like what stevedallas said specifically about the situation or hoops in general?
@moose, what you call facts we are saying is perception. As daveschmidt said earlier he heard two parents say completely opposite things and based on what they said, he is taking them both seriously. Motivation can be perceived differently as can a parent "complaining" about a coach describing a prospective athlete's injury to a local paper which "hurt" his son's getting into college or rather being recruited for baseball I presume.
susan1014 said:
mammabear said:
We all the know the story about the Boy Who Cried Wolf, right? Sadly, there seems to be a decent population of perpetual complainers in this town. Some parents find fault with everything...and make a huge deal out of every issue that their kids face. Some are over-involved helicopter parents. Others are just entitled a$$wipes. Some just go from zero to sixty on any given topic and feel they are experts in all ways. Sure these people exist everywhere, but for whatever reason, it seems like Maplewood/South Orange houses a bigger population. I feel this constant squacking ruins it for the parents who have legitimate issues.
Of course, the problem is that reasonable adults don't always agree on what is a legitimate issue, and what is inappropriate fault-finding.
Your own issue (or mine), is, of course, always a "legitimate" issue, rather than the venting of a "perpetual complainer", isn't it? Odds are good that these parents feel that way too.
On the current issue, I'll only say two things, since I have no specific knowledge:
1. I'm glad it is being investigated by someone outside of the athletic department.
2. My special needs child had two middle school teachers who were particularly insensitive to her emotional and/or learning needs, including one case that I would call emotional bullying and one that I would call academic malpractice (refusal to comply with Special Ed plan). I have to wonder if it was coincidence that both were the coaches of high school sports teams. Is it possible that the style of "motivation" accepted in coaching was bleeding over into how they dealt with their classrooms and into the attitudes they took toward struggling students?
Susan, I think most parents/adults can identify a whole list of legitimate issues, even if they don't happen to apply to them personally. We all have different hot buttons (and kids!) for sure. A perpetual complainer is very different. The parent who is always in school, always challenging the teacher and administration year after year, always finding fault with the system, etc. is pretty obvious. Even if 2 out of their 10 issues are "legitimate", no one's listening. In short, some people just NEED to b*tch and moan.
Just to be clear, I'm NOT speaking to this particular issue. I'm just speaking in general.
mammabear said:
susan1014 said:
mammabear said:
We all the know the story about the Boy Who Cried Wolf, right? Sadly, there seems to be a decent population of perpetual complainers in this town. Some parents find fault with everything...and make a huge deal out of every issue that their kids face. Some are over-involved helicopter parents. Others are just entitled a$$wipes. Some just go from zero to sixty on any given topic and feel they are experts in all ways. Sure these people exist everywhere, but for whatever reason, it seems like Maplewood/South Orange houses a bigger population. I feel this constant squacking ruins it for the parents who have legitimate issues.
Of course, the problem is that reasonable adults don't always agree on what is a legitimate issue, and what is inappropriate fault-finding.
Your own issue (or mine), is, of course, always a "legitimate" issue, rather than the venting of a "perpetual complainer", isn't it? Odds are good that these parents feel that way too.
On the current issue, I'll only say two things, since I have no specific knowledge:
1. I'm glad it is being investigated by someone outside of the athletic department.
2. My special needs child had two middle school teachers who were particularly insensitive to her emotional and/or learning needs, including one case that I would call emotional bullying and one that I would call academic malpractice (refusal to comply with Special Ed plan). I have to wonder if it was coincidence that both were the coaches of high school sports teams. Is it possible that the style of "motivation" accepted in coaching was bleeding over into how they dealt with their classrooms and into the attitudes they took toward struggling students?
Susan, I think most parents/adults can identify a whole list of legitimate issues, even if they don't happen to apply to them personally. We all have different hot buttons (and kids!) for sure. A perpetual complainer is very different. The parent who is always in school, always challenging the teacher and administration year after year, always finding fault with the system, etc. is pretty obvious. Even if 2 out of their 10 issues are "legitimate", no one's listening. In short, some people just NEED to b*tch and moan.
Just to be clear, I'm NOT speaking to this particular issue. I'm just speaking in general.
In short, your comments are completely irrelevant to this issue.
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I think that is a naive, and pretty insulting, conclusion. Just because someone isn't called out for bad behavior until later in their careers, does not mean that behavior did not exist then. Who knows how many times it was addressed one on one from parents to the coach, or to the administration, before they had to go public because nothing was being done?? You, Wendy, are a very involved member of the community. People who are abusive pick victims that they think they can get away with victimizing. Your son would've most likely been safe from that because of your close involvement in the community. You don't need to be involved in the baseball community to have heard of his reputation. Be glad that your child wasnt targeted, and let's not call all of the children who have been a lesser quality of children, please.