Abuse Testimony, but BOE Reappoints CHS Coach Anyway!

Whatev's mjh. Skip over them

momof4peepers said:

If our high schoolers aren't exposed to shaming/bullying/different motivational techniques where they can learn and develop coping techniques as well as repair their self esteem on their own (with parental guidance), where do we expect it to happen? The workplace? College?

I understand your point, but your inclusion of bullying could imply there are no lines to be drawn. We won't all agree on where to draw them, but I'd say it's imperative that they exist.

momof4peepers said:

There was an awful lot of talk about fears about reporting injuries during recruiting season (couched as 'personal health information') lack of scholarships, etc. ... Really? Over high school baseball?!

It's easy to scoff at certain priorities, especially when you consider how hard it is to earn a Division I baseball scholarship. (When we moved here three years ago, a local coach told the story of a player who was one of the best he had seen at Columbia -- and who ended up riding the bench in Division III. Others with more history around here than I have, who can name all the Division I baseball players who came out of CHS, may deem that an anecdotal exaggeration, but it rang true to me.) That said, if a parent and student think baseball is their best ticket to affording four years at a good university, who am I to begrudge the importance they place on it?

@Wendy. Sorry, facts are facts. Sometimes there is no perception. If I am aware of them and you are not, how can you possibly judge them?

You are aware of actions moose. Those actions are facts yes. How they should be perceived however is a different matter. Motivation, bullying, parental over-kill, blinders, or anything in-between. That's my only point.

Yes Wendy, but you are NOT aware, so in no position to judge. Sorry. You are only judging based on what you surmise to be true. Not facts.

moose said:

Yes Wendy, but you are NOT aware, so in no position to judge. Sorry. You are only judging based on what you surmise to be true. Not facts.

Moose, you're missing her point. Facts are cut and dry. When people say "xyz", it's a fact. They said it. No one is arguing with that fact. However, how people receive/react to the phrase "xyz" can vary. People might interpret "xyz" many different ways. That's human nature.

moose said:

@Wendy. Sorry, facts are facts. Sometimes there is no perception. If I am aware of them and you are not, how can you possibly judge them?

Moose, are you aware of the "facts" on the other side? Or, to ask another way: Why, having judged, do you think the issue is complex?

Actually, I am very aware of a few things, including the "other side" perceptions. First, everyone tries to do the best job that they can. I accept this and believe the Coaches feel they have been doing a great job, and I applaud their determination. Second, I am aware of enough personally witnessed incidents (and others that I have heard about from highly-esteemed sources) that are beyond interpretation that tell me something needs to be done to change the culture of the program, and fast. I believe the issue to be complex because I understand the complexities of human nature and the individual perceptions of right and wrong. What I have seen (and many other parents as well) is wrong. My apologies to those who pass judgement without knowing the facts, but some things are wrong no matter how you choose to frame them. Please don't pass MOL judgement without knowing the truth.

You're wrong moose. What you have just said in your 2:42 post is an opinion. You said you have seen things that are wrong.However there are people who have witnessed the same things (not me but from your peer group of current players and parents) who did not think it was wrong. They thought it was within the range of appropriate coaching. You are not judge and jury to decide this. And at this point a decision was made to move on. And another decision will be eventually made by a different school district employee or at least a recommendation by him after another investigation.

How do you know what they witnessed? How do you know they didn't think it was wrong? If I am alone in my opinion, why are there many families who have spoken out? Do you think this is an everyday occurrence? Are you actually condoning behavior that you don't know about? Sheesh. I'm out. Let's let the investigation take it's course.

You are not alone in your opinion (at least you're now calling it an opinion) but there are current families who have spoken out in support of this coaching style. As I've said in various ways here (and have others) I don't condone bullying behavior but strong language and critical language can be used by coaches and often there is a difference in where the line is drawn. Currently the principal and AD have drawn it as not bullying. The in-house counsel and anti-bullying expert will continue the investigation and report back as well.

Before you go, @moose, thank you for your answer. They weren't intended to be loaded questions, and I appreciate your elaboration.

Thanks, DaveSchmidt. And my last point, you can call this a coaching style, but do any other CHS extra-curricular activities have multiple families banding together to attempt to institute a change? And perhaps the Principal and AD say it's not bullying, but the coaches are the AD's friends, he appointed them, and told them before the investigation started not to worry. Really? So, the AD was investigating his friends. What outcome would you expect? Let's let the investigation take it's course.

Some of you folks may eventually be seriously embarrassed by some of the things you have said here. Go hide under the blankets, a la Hannah Horvath, embarrassed.

maybe by the third page of comments someone can highlight what the guy actually allegedly did that inspired so much outrage?

I always side with the coach in sports--always have. And do agree there's a lot of crying in these towns at the slightest perceived injustice.

That being said, having played baseball in college, and having kids who play baseball--should that situation have happened with my son, I would have called the coach the next day and asked for an explanation and shared my disapproval, and would take a wait-and-see attitude going forward, as well as getting data from my son to understand if this behavior is normal/regular. And I'd be arm-in-arm with the player's parents on this board should there be enough smoke to yell "fire" to share those thoughts with the coach's employer. If the coach's employer does an investigation and the coach is still retained, then my son and I/we have a decision to make--not an easy one but still a decision.

Were I a board member, and there was enough smoke, coupled with the W/L record, AND I had the personnel to take over the position, I'd certainly vote that it was time for a change. But it appears that the decision by the board has already been made. No local discussion board will cause enough of an uproar to reverse that decision, but am glad it's been surfaced and he'll, as someone mentioned, be under a microscope while he finishes the season and likely finds another position at some other school next year.

Crappy situation--when baseball is no longer fun, it's time to move on, players and coaches alike. I loved going to practice and expected to get my ass chewed when I screwed up. It made me a better player. But the humiliation described isn't acceptable. Good luck folks.

I think the majority of commentary on this issue has been thoughtful. That said, there's a long history of mistreatment of players by these guys. It's just that people who leave the program are so happy to be out, they don't want anything to do with it, or they're afraid to say anything because they have younger kids coming up.

At least 8 families wrote to Ms. Aaron about this issue, and half did so anonymously out of fear over retribution-yes, these guys are spiteful and vindictive. Two years ago, one kid was abused so badly, he broke down into tears when his brother asked him about it. They beat him up every game, even going so far as blaming individual losses on him. And it continued throughout the season. He didn't want to play last year, but his family made him.

They may be great fathers. They may be great teachers. But they should not be allowed to be coaches, at least not in this town. And if you want to know where Coach Fischetti picked up his "style," come to a game when his father's there. He stands behind the dugout and yells at the kids, too.

There's a lot more information likely to come out about this situation, but know this: Some of the kids on the team were watching the BOE broadcast Monday night, and they saw how Malcolm Stern stood up for himself. Now they're thinking about speaking up, too. Here's hoping they find the courage to do so.

From my post on The Village Green:

'I have been forwarding this article to many former players and cannot find one yet, who supports these coaches. FWIW, my children throughout their scholastic/athletic life, have encountered teachers/coaches that might be considered unfair or subpar. I always told them "Life doesn't always give you the best supervisor and someday you are going to have a boss that is similar. Learn for this short time, to make the best of it." That being said, I was taken aback when these young not-yet-men would tell me the way they were treated.'

Snaggletooth said:

I think the majority of commentary on this issue has been thoughtful. That said, there's a long history of mistreatment of players by these guys. It's just that people who leave the program are so happy to be out, they don't want anything to do with it, or they're afraid to say anything because they have younger kids coming up.

Yes, 4 - 5 years out, I am still having a hard time finding young-now-men wanting to relive this part of their life.

I have no dog in this fight. As a parent and resident, I am concerned and hope the independent investigation provides evidence of what actually occurred. The idea that there were no prior complaints is absolutely meaningless and is not evidence of what allegedly occurred. Testimony from the current and former players is evidence but it must be credible. When the investigation is fulsome and fair to all, the outcome is likely palatable.

All of my children (4) have or currently are involved in organized and school sports. Just as each of my kids athletic skills varied, so did the skills of the coach. I expect any coach to treat each athlete with respect and in addition to coaching the sports skills to actually reinforce the positive development of the athlete and the transferable skills that sports brings in the development of the athlete.

I am surprised that with today's technology that we have not seen or heard a recording of any events, yet.

OrangePurse said:

I am surprised that with today's technology that we have not seen or heard a recording of any events, yet.

From my own personal experience...
I heard a large amount of "chatter" from players that I filed away as being whining. Being a parent, I thought that there was a lot of exaggerating because 'Coach' was unfair. I found out too much later that so much of it was true. Let's remember that our children in high school are still very vulnerable and most too afraid of speaking up.

Justmelaura

I was referring to someone recording the behavior via a phone, be it audio or video. This was how conduct of some college coach was proven. I am sorry that your child (anyone's) had such a terrible experience, it is not part of the game or life lessons that sports is intended to provide.

wendy said:

My likely last comments here.

Apparently my statement about the caliber and maturity of the players have changed has struck a nerve to many. So be it. I am not however trying to be insulting to your sons.

A bit of explanation. My son's team was together for 4 years and I continued to follow the program after that. What I am trying to say is that it seems to me that much of what I'm hearing spoken of would not be discussed out of the locker room between players and coaches if those players were more mature and supported each other as a team. There was yelling back and forth all the time I hear.

Let's be clear. Two players supported Fischetti at the meeting. They last played for him in 2007, when he was their freshman coach. He was not their coach for their sophomore, junior, or senior years. (There have been ZERO players from Fischetti's years as varsity coach who have voiced support.)

One of these players talked about how his dismissal would ruin the Columbia brand of baseball. For the record, that brand is a losing brand. Aside from a few good years five to seven years ago, it has been a losing program. They have not had a winning record since 2010.

Maybe the issue has to do with the unwillingness or inability of the coaches to teach. That is the biggest indictment of the program, along with how many players drop out along the way. The drop-off rate in baseball, especially after freshman and sophomore years when you expect attrition, is far higher than in other sports.

straight_life said:

Maybe the issue has to do with the unwillingness or inability of the coaches to teach. That is the biggest indictment of the program, along with how many players drop out along the way. The drop-off rate in baseball, especially after freshman and sophomore years when you expect attrition, is far higher than in other sports.

You can judge a coach by the number of players who vote with their feet. Our towns have a strong youth baseball program. We should be able to field solid baseball teams.

In any case, what is the point of high school sports? To me, it should be a place where a group of kids come together to work hard and play hard and build some memories for a lifetime. That should be the focus, not winning. If you focus on the those fundamentals, winning will follow. While it is easier to have fun when you are winning, a good coach can teach the kids to understand that losing in sport when you have done your best is not a bad thing.

In terms of behavior, coaching is not teaching. When you teach, your goal is to make every one of your students as successful as they can be and some methods that might be appropriate for the playing field are not appropriate for the classroom. In sport, unlike the classroom, some kids will be cut. And some will sit for a lot of games.

I expect coaches to yell sometimes and to swear sometimes. But they should not single kids out for humiliation. When you make a mistake on the field, you are well-aware of that fact and do not need to be reminded. And if the coach has built a team, the players don't want to let down their teammates.

I expect coaches to take feedback from the AD and from parents regarding their behavior and make improvements as they go. I expect coaches to apologize to kids when they have been out of line. A strong coach can apologize. A weak coach cannot. (I once had a teacher apologize to a student for embarrassing her in class the day before - impressive, but rare).

Above all, I expect coaches to understand that it is about the kids and not about them.

Any great coach will tell you they are primarily teachers. Go read their books: Wooden, Coach K, etc.

straight_life said:

Any great coach will tell you they are primarily teachers. Go read their books: Wooden, Coach K, etc.

I agree completely. I was trying to say that the teaching methods of a coach are going to differ a the methods of a classroom teacher - but on reflection, maybe not. A great teacher is a great coach and vice versa whether it is math or sport or whatever.

And, here is one of many easily found articles on abusive coaching.

https://www.competitivedge.com/%E2%80%9Ccoaching-abuse-dirty-not-so-little-secret-sports%E2%80%9D

I hope the administration is proactive here and establishes a code of conduct for coaches. If not, I think we can expect more parents to start these discussions with legal counsel at their side.

These whiny kids and their parents need a lesson from Jimmy Dugan and it is not "Avoid the Clap". (Although that is good advice too)

Why is it that folks like you who know nothing about a situation can't resist showing off ignorance about it?

Drebin said:

These whiny kids and their parents need a lesson from Jimmy Dugan and it is not "Avoid the Clap". (Although that is good advice too)

There are whiny kids. There are whiny parents. And there are bully coaches. Coaches who match some of the behaviors of bully coaches need to receive counseling from the AD and change their ways or they need to move on. The great coaches in history were not bully coaches.

A great coach once told me this equation

Coach = Teacher + Role Model

Its not easy to live up to, but its what the most successful and best coaches will aspire to.