Is Pelosi really planning to visit Taiwan

nohero said:

nan said:

nohero said:

nan said:

They have made it clear that they don't want her to visit so justifying it as "not inconsistent" with the current U.S. policy is not going to stop them from a belligerent response.  

The US seems to have difficulty listening to other countries when they repeatedly tell them to back off. 

"China doesn't like U.S. support for Taiwan" is a fact, and what we're talking about are details connected with that support. So just saying "China doesn't like it" isn't a good reason.

I think you should read both NY Times pieces which I linked to in this thread, for a better factual and historical background and current status, than you may have obtained from the Jimmy Dore videos.

while my understanding of this goes way beyond Jimmy Dore, and includes reading your links, I would take Dore's take over the NYTs any day since they have supported every war for as long as I've been around.  They should be read with extreme caution, otherwise one might find they have been turned into a neocon.  I know you would not want that to happen to you. 

When a country that has nukes and the ability to defeat your army tells you not to come, you should listen and oblige.  Those who choose to play nuclear chicken should not be in positions of power. This is dangerously nuts. 

This is not the reason to ignore anything printed in the NY Times: "I would take Dore's take over the NYTs any day since they have supported every war for as long as I've been around."

If you're using it to ignore something on the editorial page, you still have to explain what in the editorial is untrustworthy.

If you're using it to ignore something in the news sections (which have a lot of contributors, and a lot of subjects), you similarly have to explain.

It's like saying, "I don't trust what's in the '1619 Project', because it's in the NY Times." That's MAGA talk.

Also, it sounds like you didn't even bother to read the first NY Times piece I linked - at least look at the title. [Edited to add, see picture below]

And with respect to this: "When a country that has nukes and the ability to defeat your army tells you not to come, you should listen and oblige." That reads as saying that the U.S. should tell Taiwan to just surrender itself to full control by Beiing. If that's not your position, you can correct me on that.

You lost me at "That's MAGA talk."    

I have a subscription to the NYTs, by the way. 


Warning from former US intelligence professionals that Pelosi's planned visit to Taiwan puts the world at risk (that includes the US). Only those brainwashed unaware of US diplomatic commitments and believing in US invincibility (even after Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan) would doubt this.

https://www.antiwar.com/blog/2022/07/30/military-clash-with-china-over-pelosi-visit/


If Taiwan looks like easy pickings for China, think of Taiwan as the Afghanistan in your scenario.   Quickly mined coastlines, fishing boats tricked out with military hardware, hidden underwater caverns hosting submarines, hard-to-reach mountainous regions, well-trained armed forces, etc.  And despite the Chinese wanting to bring Taiwan back into the PRC, bombing cities would be very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very unpopular once word got out.  China is going to wait and see how things play out for Russia's crazy gamble before upsetting a single wok in Taiwan. 


paulsurovell said:

Warning from former US intelligence professionals that Pelosi's planned visit to Taiwan puts the world at risk (that includes the US). Only those brainwashed unaware of US diplomatic commitments and believing in US invincibility (even after Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan) would doubt this.

https://www.antiwar.com/blog/2022/07/30/military-clash-with-china-over-pelosi-visit/

That's really over-the-top ridiculous.  The tensions between Taiwan and China are not going to be changed or increased as a result of a visit. The irresponsible warmongering on behalf of China will just use it as a talking point, of course.


Seems like Pelosi got the message and she is not going to Taiwan. 

Bloomberg: Pelosi's Asia Itinerary Skips Mention of Taiwan Stopover.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-07-31/pelosi-s-asia-itinerary-skips-mention-of-taiwan-stopover



Jasmo said:

Seems like Pelosi got the message and she is not going to Taiwan. 

Bloomberg: Pelosi's Asia Itinerary Skips Mention of Taiwan Stopover.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-07-31/pelosi-s-asia-itinerary-skips-mention-of-taiwan-stopover

You got me excited with this post, but it seems she still might go because it's just not decided. Hopefully you are right. 


Pelosi is a longstanding Democratic establishment leader & team player, and it would be highly unlikely that she would go against the US military and President Biden on an international matter, particularly on a symbolic visit.

nan said:

You got me excited with this post, but it seems she still might go because it's just not decided. Hopefully you are right. 


paulsurovell said:

Warning from former US intelligence professionals that Pelosi's planned visit to Taiwan puts the world at risk (that includes the US). Only those brainwashed unaware of US diplomatic commitments and believing in US invincibility (even after Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan) would doubt this.

https://www.antiwar.com/blog/2022/07/30/military-clash-with-china-over-pelosi-visit/

The VIPS guys (last seen explaining how the Russians couldn't have hacked to DNC) are back! 


Jasmo said:

Pelosi is a longstanding Democratic establishment leader & team player, and it would be highly unlikely that she would go against the US military and President Biden on an international matter, particularly on a symbolic visit.

nan said:

You got me excited with this post, but it seems she still might go because it's just not decided. Hopefully you are right. 

I agree, but we don't know what went on behind the public.  The fact that she was going in the first place was, no doubt, encouraged by the White House.  People like Pelosi don't just decide to be a rebel. 


nan said:

I agree, but we don't know what went on behind the public.  The fact that she was going in the first place was, no doubt, encouraged by the White House.  People like Pelosi don't just decide to be a rebel. 

You really should have read the articles I provided links to on this thread.

The speaker is a longstanding critic of China. In Beijing, she is viewed as hostile.

As a two-term congresswoman from California, Ms. Pelosi visited Beijing in 1991, two years after Chinese troops opened fire on student protesters around Tiananmen Square, killing hundreds if not thousands.

Accompanied to the square by several congressional colleagues and a small group of reporters, Ms. Pelosi unfurled a banner commemorating the dead students. The banner read: “To Those Who Died for Democracy in China.”
...
Ms. Pelosi is a strong supporter of the Dalai Lama and the rights of Tibetans. In 2015, with official permission from the Chinese government, Ms. Pelosi visited Lhasa, the capital of Tibet, on a tightly controlled trip that is usually off limits to foreign officials and journalists.


nan said:

tjohn said:

I missed the part where Paul or Nan explain what U.S. policy towards Taiwan should be with options ranging from throw Taiwan under the bus to defend Taiwan with all available means.

The only ground rule is to acknowledge that China is not going to allow Taiwan to operate independently forever.

I don't speak for Paul but here is what I think:   Let's leave them alone and let them figure it out themselves.  We should not be involved OR selling arms to Taiwan.

Let's learn from our mistakes for once.  

Let's not go to war with China.   Let's not spend so much money interfering in other countries while ours is in such dire need of help.  

Why is it that now seems like a radical position?   

Whether this is a good approach or not, what you are saying is that, at best, Taiwan will be follow in the tracks of Hong Kong.  I wonder what the Taiwanese wants and are willing to fight for.


The latest news is that Pelosi will visit Taiwan, and is being supported by Biden and the government in that regard, although it has not been announced as part of her itinerary.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/01/politics/nancy-pelosi-taiwan-visit/index.html

nan said:

I agree, but we don't know what went on behind the public.  The fact that she was going in the first place was, no doubt, encouraged by the White House.  People like Pelosi don't just decide to be a rebel. 


China doesn't just aim its propaganda at American "progressives", it also aims it a American right-wingers - "pray" for Pelosi the "sinner". 


paulsurovell said:

This is the state of play: US is crossing another red line. Arrogantly and stupidly.

You actually believe propaganda from Chinese news outlets and PLA social media posts?


We should engage with a murderer like Putin.  Got it.

But we shouldn't engage with a friendly country like Taiwan?  Got it.

Have a nice trip Nancy.   Please visit the great folks at Taiwan Semi and tell them that I love their company.   


The situation with Russia and the situation with China are quite different.

Russia is a has been (never to be again) superpower reduced to being a gas station with nukes managed by a mobster.  Putin is pursuing some white-supremacist vision of restoring the glory of Mother Russia.  And Putin wants to be a geopolitically "respected" country with input into the affairs of Europe, the Middle East and Asia.  However, he has played his cards such that the West must help Ukraine resist the Russian invasion.

China represents a different challenge do to the great and growing economic strength of China.  I am not sure that I see a path to finesse the situation with Taiwan.  China will continue to build military power until they think they can force the U.S. to accept defeat without actually going to war.


tjohn said:


Russia is a has been (never to be again) superpower reduced to being a gas station with nukes managed by a mobster.


Twenty years of history in one sentence.

Excellent!


drummerboy said:

tjohn said:

Russia is a has been (never to be again) superpower reduced to being a gas station with nukes managed by a mobster.


Twenty years of history in one sentence.

Excellent!

That's so insulting and disrespectful and ignorant.  No wonder the Russians are eating our lunch. 


drummerboy said:

Twenty years of history in one sentence.

Excellent!

Somewhere John McCain, who coined the metaphor eight years ago, appreciates your praise.


DaveSchmidt said:

drummerboy said:

Twenty years of history in one sentence.

Excellent!

Somewhere John McCain, who coined the metaphor eight years ago, appreciates your praise.

John McCain you say. . .


She landed in Taiwan.  WWIII will start tomorrow I guess?


jamie said:

She landed in Taiwan.  WWIII will start tomorrow I guess?

We're ready! 


jamie said:

She landed in Taiwan.  WWIII will start tomorrow I guess?

Xi warned her to not let the sun set on her in Taiwan… 


Allowing that Nan's reaction was over the top, it is still stupid to make glib comments about China's response.  Pelosi's visit is not helpful in any way.  It feels like red meat for domestic China haters.

And domestic political considerations have often been at the root of some of our worst foreign policy choices.

In 1943 or so, Joseph Stilwell, observing the corruption of Chiang Kai-shek said we should support Mao Zedong.  But such a move was politically impossible given that rich people in the U.S. were more terrified of communists and socialists than anything else in the world.  But had we supported Mao, there would be no Taiwan issue today.


I don't see what Pelosi gains from this that's a net positive against the negatives of increased tensions. Maybe there's some vulnerable House Democrats that such a performative "standing up to China" helps?

The idea that Pelosi is doing the WH bidding here (and that, I suppose, the WH is doing the bidding of whoever it it runs the whole world) is silly, but I do join the overall consensus on this thread that the trip to Taiwan was not wise. 


Has anyone even come out in support of the trip or to defend it? Has Pelosi even said anything about it?

All I saw was one tweet saying that China shouldn't be dictating the travel plans of Americans.


PVW said:

I don't see what Pelosi gains from this that's a net positive against the negatives of increased tensions. Maybe there's some vulnerable House Democrats that such a performative "standing up to China" helps?

The idea that Pelosi is doing the WH bidding here (and that, I suppose, the WH is doing the bidding of whoever it it runs the whole world) is silly, but I do join the overall consensus on this thread that the trip to Taiwan was not wise. 

Pelosi almost certainly was not doing the WH any favors.  As for her motivation, all politics are local, so I believe she thought that appearing to stand up to China would benefit some Democrat somewhere.


This makes me realize I don't have a good sense of the politics of American with an East Asian background, who I assume are the audience here? Or is there some other Democratic or Democratic-leaning constituency that Taiwan specifically, or China in general, is an especially salient issue for?


In order to add a comment – you must Join this community – Click here to do so.

Rentals

Sponsored Business

Find Business

Advertise here!