Is this woman a dangerous moron?
“Our results preliminarily indicate herd immunity and sustained effectiveness of the bivalent vaccine on virologic outcomes at the population level.”
drummerboy said:
j_r said:You're missing my point. There is no "herd immunity" for a non-contagious disease like cancer. The point of vaccinations is to protect a whole population, not individuals.
drummerboy said:Perhaps that's a comfortable position to take if you don't have a uterus, or a daughter or sister, or if you (unlike the majority of Americans 18 and over) don't plan to have sex. (And the diseases that HPV immunization protects against also strike men.)
the difference is that cancer is not contagious, so deciding to take the vaccination is much more of a personal decision than other vaccines. There's no public health risk if you choose to not take taking gardasil.
Herd immunity requires a community effort. And the cost of medical treatment for cancer falls, directly or not, on all of us.
eta: think of it this way. In order to eradicate a communicable disease, you need to achieve herd immunity, which is, let's say, a vaccination rate of 90% of the population.
If you reach 90% coverage of gardasil, you will not eliminate the disease, nor will you decrease the chance of a non-vaccinated person of contracting cancer.
That's not true. If there is 90% coverage with Gardasil, the chances of non-vaccinated people catching the HPV virus will decrease.
spontaneous said:
It is partly religious extremists, but it is also distrust of vaccine campaigns since the US used a fake vaccine program to acquire DNA samples in their search for Bin Laden. If I am not mistaken people who received vaccines during that event didn’t even get all the needed doses since there was no need to return, they only needed to show up once to get the DNA samples. Medicine should NEVER be used for intelligence gathering. Doing so endangers medical staff and hampers efforts to give aid to needy populations
The fake vaccine program took place in Pakistan. I don't think this is a valid argument for why Americans (in America) don't want to take vaccines.
BG9 said:
shoshannah said:Polio would by now have been eradicated were it not religious objections. The same eradication effort that was sucessfull on smallpox was attempted on polio.
tom said:You know why you don't need a smallpox vaccine?? Because SMALLPOX WAS ERADICATED FROM THE FACE OF THE EARTH IN 1981 DUE TO THE WORLDWIDE VACCINATION PROGRAM.
You probably don't need a smallpox vaccine. Everything else? Probably yes.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2727330/
The local Taliban have issued fatwas denouncing vaccination as an American ploy to sterilize Muslim populations. Another common superstition spread by extremists is that vaccination is an attempt to avert the will of Allah. The Taliban have assassinated vaccination officials, including Abdul Ghani Marwat, who was the head of the government’s vaccination campaign in Bajaur Agency in the Pakistani tribal areas, on his way back from meeting a religious cleric (5). Over the past year, several kidnappings and beatings of vaccinators have been reported. Vaccination campaigns in Nigeria and Afghanistan have also been hampered by Islamic extremists, especially in the Nigerian province of Kano in 2003, which has resulted in the infection returning to 8 previously polio-free countries in Africa (2).
My comments about the fake vaccine program vs religious objections was in response to this comment
DaveSchmidt said:
drummerboy said:You may have missed Klinker’s earlier point. Gardasil is a vaccination against a contagious virus, HPV, that can lead to cancer.
j_r said:You're missing my point. There is no "herd immunity" for a non-contagious disease like cancer. The point of vaccinations is to protect a whole population, not individuals.
Perhaps that's a comfortable position to take if you don't have a uterus, or a daughter or sister, or if you (unlike the majority of Americans 18 and over) don't plan to have sex. (And the diseases that HPV immunization protects against also strike men.)
Herd immunity requires a community effort. And the cost of medical treatment for cancer falls, directly or not, on all of us.
oops
drummerboy said:
DaveSchmidt said:oops
drummerboy said:You may have missed Klinker’s earlier point. Gardasil is a vaccination against a contagious virus, HPV, that can lead to cancer.
j_r said:You're missing my point. There is no "herd immunity" for a non-contagious disease like cancer. The point of vaccinations is to protect a whole population, not individuals.
Perhaps that's a comfortable position to take if you don't have a uterus, or a daughter or sister, or if you (unlike the majority of Americans 18 and over) don't plan to have sex. (And the diseases that HPV immunization protects against also strike men.)
Herd immunity requires a community effort. And the cost of medical treatment for cancer falls, directly or not, on all of us.
Also, HPV is very contagious. It can be spread sexually or even by skin contact. We cannot assume the young do not have sex or will avoid close skin contact. Its silly to not vaccinate.
Someone posted above that big pharma does not want to do vaccines, a money loser. In some cases that is false. Some vaccines, such as Prevnar 13 or the Shingles vaccine are money makers and media advertised to get people to buy in.
from Bob Roe: I think vaccines are very safe and prevent a lot of very bad diseases. Memories of history can be short, but not too many decades ago hundreds of thousands of people were afflicted not just with death, but with life long impairments such as hearing loss and sterility and paralysis. Remember the photos of the iron lungs for polio patients. As an older person, I remember the three Sundays in the mid 1960s where we all took the Sabin oral polio vaccine on a sugar cube at our local schools. This virtually wiped out dreaded polio in the US. Please do not be mislead by people who do not understand the value of vaccines.
As far as HPV vaccine and Hep-B, think to yourself, "If there was vaccine that prevented cancer, wouldn't you want your children to take have it." I vaccinated without any hesitation all my kids against these diseases.
On a more esoteric note, I frequently hear the excuse that, " I do not want foreign substances put into my child's body." This thinking shows a limited understanding of biology. Every breath we take has a foreign substance. But our bodies are built to fend off almost all of these substances. We all live in biological soup and we are part of the soup. Most biologic substances cause us no harm. But there are certainly some "bad actors" and we need to guard ourselves against these.
@drummerboy
Your assumption is wrong.
An unvaccinated person would be way less likely to contract HPV/cervical cancer/throat cancer if the immunization rate is 90% because that person would be highly unlikely to encounter a person who is carrying the virus. HPV is a communicable disease, and for sure, there is a herd immunity effect with widespread vaccination. Dontcha think the rate of HIV infection would plummet if 90% of the population were vaccinated against it? It works the same way for HPV infection.
sportsnut said:
Yet another study
https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/04/health/mmr-vaccine-autism-study/index.html
Why are they doing new studies on settled science? Every valid study has shown MMR does NOT cause Autism.
The vaccine deniers won't and those making money of that won't change. The deniers will continue to assume the studies are Big Pharma fakes. The leeches will continue selling their bogus online remedies.
If it was only about money, Big Pharma, would not be doing vaccines. A lot more money can be made curing the sick and/or institutionalizing them.
So, lets, go back to the good old pre-vaccine era:
Unvaccinated kid gets Tetanus. 57 days in hospital, 17 days in a rehabilitation center, one month outside rehabilitation. Cost 800,000.
His jaws got locked up so they couldn't even open his mouth to give fluids. He was for over a month on a ventilator.
He was in extreme pain:
He also stayed in a darkened room for weeks, where he wore earplugs and was exposed to little stimulation to avoid making his spasms worse, Dr. Guzman-Cottrill said. His pain was so bad, she said, that doctors took care not to trigger him even with their voices. “We had to whisper,” she said.
He was NOT vaccinated. He was given TDAP in hospital. Getting Tetanus does not immunize against the disease.
After, release the doctors tried to set up TDAP and other vaccination schedule for the child. The parents refused:
Still, the experience did not change the position of the boy’s parents.https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/09/well/oregon-child-tetanus-vaccine.html
When the time came for his second round of DTaP, doctors talked with the family about the need for vaccinations. Surviving tetanus, unlike some other diseases, does not offer immunity in the future.
But despite an “extensive review” of the risks, and the benefits of vaccination, the article said, the family declined the second vaccination — or any other recommended immunization.
shoshannah said:
@drummerboy
Your assumption is wrong.
An unvaccinated person would be way less likely to contract HPV/cervical cancer/throat cancer if the immunization rate is 90% because that person would be highly unlikely to encounter a person who is carrying the virus. HPV is a communicable disease, and for sure, there is a herd immunity effect with widespread vaccination. Dontcha think the rate of HIV infection would plummet if 90% of the population were vaccinated against it? It works the same way for HPV infection.
yes, I said oops already. I forgot that it was targeting a virus.
An untreated tetanus infection quickly develops into an awful, whole body experience that involves headaches, fever, and eventually involuntary muscle contractions and spasms. If it goes unnoticed or mistaken for less serious conditions, tetanus progresses to overall muscle contractions little or no relaxation. Anymore, kinda like a slow motion tonic seizure from hell that never subsides. Our limb movements are coordinated by complementary sets of muscles, like bending your arm at the elbow - muscles contract and relax in coordination to allow this to happen and then the roles are reversed to have it straighten out. Tetanus makes ALL the muscles contract at the same time. No taking turns.
Your back muscles are really strong - care to guess what happens when they all contract? Our joints are held together by fibrous tissues (tendons and ligaments) that are only so strong in the face of constant tension so dislocations are common. And if the joints don't give out, sometimes bones themselves can break under the torque that develops with our long limbs.
And that whole lockjaw thing most everyone seems to know. That's when the muscles working the jaw spasm and contract without relaxing. Better hope your sinuses are clear. How about those lips? The tongue? The cheeks? What about the incredible muscular coordination involved in swallowing? (I got to see that whole process break down as my father died from Parkinson's disease) Uh huh.
And so now we get to our breathing which is possible because of muscle movement, like your diaphragm and the muscles operating your rib cage. They gotta contract AND relax or you're done so onto the respirator you go.
All that and you still aren't immune if you survive. I wonder if the kid can communicate his experience with his parents. I wonder if he'll want to harm them should he ever come to understand the science of immunology.
I'm not sure why I saw fit to go on such a rant but I did. I hope that imagery wasn't too upsetting.
Italy's gotten tough. Their new law is getting their vaccination rate from 80% to over 95%.
We have laws to protect us from others. We do not allow drunk driving. We do not allow smoking in public buildings.
Yet, we allow the unvaccinated to endanger newborns, the immunized compromised and those who medically cannot be vaccinated.
Will we ever get the political spine to get tough? Will we continue to allow the nutjobs to drive policy?
The new law was passed to raise Italy's plummeting vaccination rates from below 80% to the World Health Organisation's 95% target.
On Monday - the last day for parents to provide documentation proving their children had been properly vaccinated - the Italian health authority released figures claiming a national immunisation rate at or very close to 95% for children born in 2015, depending on which vaccine was being discussed.
The 95% threshold is the point at which "herd immunity" kicks in - when enough of the population is vaccinated for the spread of the disease to become unlikely, thereby protecting those who cannot be vaccinated.
That includes babies too young to be vaccinated themselves, or those with medical conditions such as a compromised immune system.
Last month, an eight-year-old recovering from cancer was unable to attend school in Rome due to his weak immune system.
The child had spent months receiving treatment for leukaemia, but was at risk of infection because a proportion of pupils in the school had not been vaccinated - including several in the same class.
For the Schoolhouse Rock-like video:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2019/03/11/opinion/measles-outbreak-vaccines.amp.html
Ok, I’m not an antivaxxer, but I don’t understand how there could be such opposing views: https://childrenshealthdefense.org/news/the-impact-of-vaccines-on-mortality-decline-since-1900-according-to-published-science/?utm_source=mailchimp
Okokokok said:
Ok, I’m not an antivaxxer, but I don’t understand how there could be such opposing views: https://childrenshealthdefense.org/news/the-impact-of-vaccines-on-mortality-decline-since-1900-according-to-published-science/?utm_source=mailchimp
Because that article only focuses on mortality. Many kids who get measles will live (it may just take months to recover). The kid who got tetanus will live (after $800,000 worth of medical services). You can live with paralysis after polio.
But what it ignores about vaccination is the prevention of the disease, reduced prevalence/reduced spread of the disease, reduced suffering and side effects from the diseases (ETA: and medical treatment costs), reduced need for other interventions like quarantine or isolation (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/man-broke-measles-quarantine_n_5c7fc8e1e4b0e62f69e86c0b).
sprout said:
Okokokok said:
Ok, I’m not an antivaxxer, but I don’t understand how there could be such opposing views: https://childrenshealthdefense.org/news/the-impact-of-vaccines-on-mortality-decline-since-1900-according-to-published-science/?utm_source=mailchimp
Because that article only focuses on mortality.
Dr. Kass pled with his colleagues to be open to understanding WHY [Ed. note: DEATHS FROM ] infectious diseases had declined so dramatically in the U.S. (as well as other first world countries). Was it nutrition? Sanitary methods? A reduction in home crowding?
Ed. note: TREATMENT?
Top: A chart that “Children’s Health Defense” uses to question the impact of vaccines.
Bottom: A CDC chart of the incidence of the same disease.
from Bob Roe: A couple of thoughts. 1. I think most all school teachers in middle and high school should get DTaP booster shots. The immunization of the children to this disease may have waned by the time they get to high school. We have seen several reported cases of pertussis in teachers. The cough lasts for months. They of course do not die, but they are very sick and unable to work for months.
2. There is not much dispute that sanitation (clean homes, sewage treatment, clean water, safe foods) have been perhaps the major factors in longer live spans. Also include safe child birth and care of the mother in these numbers. But do not discount vaccines. They currently play a major role in reducing morbidity and mortality. Good medical care does reduce mortality from these vaccine preventable diseases, but prevention by vaccination is best. While not causing death many of these vaccine preventable diseases caused life time hearing loss, sterility and paralysis.
RobertRoe said:
from Bob Roe: A couple of thoughts. 1. I think most all school teachers in middle and high school should get DTaP booster shots. The immunization of the children to this disease may have waned by the time they get to high school. We have seen several reported cases of pertussis in teachers. The cough lasts for months. They of course do not die, but they are very sick and unable to work for months.
My mother had health aides. They were REQUIRED to get vaccinations to keep their employment.
So the taxpayer's end up paying the sick leave for those who were careless. If kids are required to keep up to date vaccinations is it too much to require the same of staff?
Actually, its time for all employers to require up to date vaccinations. Only medical exceptions should be allowed. If you expect religious exception then get God to employ you.
Which also bring up fake vaccination papers. Are they now standardized and verifiable? Or can anyone still PDF or Word create their own custom paper? How can a school verify? I suspect if a school tries to verify dodgy papers it may not be possible. Calling a Dr's office could lead to "sorry, can't release medical information." This is something public health should work on.
OK, please don't shoot the messenger. I am not an anti-vaxxer and I already have enough people yelling at me on the political threads. But, I like to see both sides to an issue represented and I just came across this article on twitter and it was upsetting to read. I'm curious what others here think:
‘I will never get over feeling I killed my son’: Anti-vaccination activists refuse to be 'silenced’
https://www.rt.com/news/454052-vaccination-activists-side-effects-/
Actually, there are no two sides to this issue. To give two sides is a false equivalency, similar to giving equivalency to the climate change deniers.
We may as well give two sides to the flat earth society.
nan said:
OK, please don't shoot the messenger. I am not an anti-vaxxer and I already have enough people yelling at me on the political threads. But, I like to see both sides to an issue represented and I just came across this article on twitter and it was upsetting to read. I'm curious what others here think:
Cordingley says her quest is not about turning down decades of medical research, but coming to independent conclusions from papers that are out there, and the real ignorance is among those who simply believe what they are told by health professionals.
I can see how her approach would appeal to a skeptical reader of professional work like you.
(^^^ Written with nary a shout.)
BG9 said:
Actually, there are no two sides to this issue. To give two sides is a false equivalency, similar to giving equivalency to the climate change deniers.
We may as well give two sides to the flat earth society.
OK, fine. What did you think of the article?
DaveSchmidt said:
Cordingley says her quest is not about turning down decades of medical research, but coming to independent conclusions from papers that are out there, and the real ignorance is among those who simply believe what they are told by health professionals.
I can see how her approach would appeal to a skeptical reader of professional work like you.
(^^^ Written with nary a shout.)
I barely read this article. As a parent I find stuff like this difficult to read. I posted it because it made me think about how I would feel if my child received a vaccination and then died and how I would feel like the whole world was against me. I was just trying to put my feet in the shoes of a person who felt they were directly affected. I feel really bad for those parents. I thought it would be interesting to see what others thought--since this is a discussion board, not an agreement center.
I did not realize about the heath professional stuff, but I would agree being skeptical. I personally experienced that when I was pregnant and had the head of a high risk pregnancy department at a major NY hospital give me flat out wrong and dangerous advice. I did not feel qualified to contradict him but I felt it was just wrong. I later went to my regular GP and told her what he said and she said that sounded totally wrong and sent me to an endocrinologist who confirmed that it was really wrong and I needed an immediate change in medication. I have heard similar stories from other parents, including a parent whose child suffered brain damage due to medical malpractice.
So, I agree with being skeptical. I also had a conversation once with a man who had twins and one of them had autism. He seemed to believe that vaccinations had caused this condition and I said that science had confirmed that was not possible and he said, "I read the stuff from the UK. They are more open to that there." Anyway, I was not going to argue more and I have not done any research on my own and I'm not an expert.
nan said:
I posted it because it made me think about how I would feel if my child received a vaccination and then died and how I would feel like the whole world was against me. I was just trying to put my feet in the shoes of a person who felt they were directly affected.
I would be devastated. I doubt it would make me feel qualified to undercut well-researched, peer-reviewed public health policy.
nan said:
I also had a conversation once with a man who had twins and one of them had autism. He seemed to believe that vaccinations had caused this condition and I said that science had confirmed that was not possible and he said, "I read the stuff from the UK. They are more open to that there." Anyway, I was not going to argue more and I have not done any research on my own and I'm not an expert.
Ok, I'm an autism parent, and I get that not knowing why your kid has autism is frustrating. Medical science around autism sucks - it is diagnosed by "observation" and the DSM changes the definition of the disorder significantly every 20 years or so. All science can say is that it seems to be partly genetic - which a lot of parents feel guilt about, and parents of twins where one is diagnosed and the other is not must feel especially unsatisfied by the state of the science.
I also get why you would not want to engage such a person. But I sure would like to have a conversation of a parent who has twins, one with ASD the other without, who blame vaccines. Certainly the parents did not vaccinate just one of the twins!
This essay is a little old (10 years) now, but is truly excellent at laying out the malfeasance of Andrew Wakefield. https://asatonline.org/research-treatment/resources/topical-articles/autism-and-vaccines-the-evidence-to-date/
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You may have missed Klinker’s earlier point. Gardasil is a vaccination against a contagious virus, HPV, that can lead to cancer.