More 6th grade math placement concerns
MichaelParis said:
As I noted on the other thread, it seems to me that any parent has a right under federal law to inspect all graded tests or assessments used to determine level placements, since these are clearly "educational records" within the meaning of the Federal Educational Rights and Privacy Act. A written request can be filed with Ms. Cheryl Schneider at Academy Street, the business administrator, who is responsible for processing FERPA and NJ Open Public Record Act (OPRA) requests.
Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act (FERPA)
http://www2.ed.gov/policy/gen/guid/fpco/ferpa/parents.html
What is an Education Record?
Education records are records that are directly related to a student and that are maintained by an educational agency or institution or a party acting for or on behalf of the agency or institution. These records include but are not limited to grades, transcripts, class lists, student course schedules, health records (at the K-12 level), student financial information (at the postsecondary level), and student discipline files. The information may be recorded in any way, including, but not limited to, handwriting, print, computer media, videotape, audiotape, film, microfilm, microfiche, and e-mail.
Source: 34 CFR § 99.2 “Education Records” and “Record”
In addition to federal law, the BOE own's policy 8300 and NJ administrative law 6A:32-7.5 would seem to give parents right to such information. (An open records act request is not the proper way to have access to your child's records however, the aforementioned laws should be sufficient.)
But an open records act request would be useful to obtain all documents concerning what if any validation steps the District takes to ensure that the PT-6 and PT-7 tests measure what they claim they measure. A recent federal court opinion which explains what is involved in the validation process for tests. You can't base validation on anecdotal evidence. http://cases.justia.com/federal/district-courts/new-york/nysdce/1:1996cv08414/153024/608/0.pdf?ts=1433593561
I found it very interesting and enlightening. It concerns an employment test, but the discussion of test validation is relevant. I also found Nate Silver's book, the Signal and the Noise, helpful.
By far the most important factor with the District's math placement is the student's performance on the PT-6 and PT-7, and as I explained in another thread, the failure of the PT-6 to properly identify my son for placement in the 6th grade (because he did not get all the items deemed "critical" correct on the PT-6 test despite 290+ scores on his NJAsk Math), and then after getting A+s each marking period in regular 6th grade math, was finally "deemed successful" on the PT-7 and put into the program beginning in the 7th grade, where from then on all the way thru high school, was consistently the top math student in his grade (800 on the Math SAT; 5's on BC Calc; Stats, and Physics), seriously calls into question the validity of the district's home grown PT tests. Missing a child at the margins is understandable; but failing to identify a top performing student? (And it wasn't just my son they missed; they earlier completely missed my daughter, 740 on the SAT and then 5 on BC Calc her senior year).
tbd said:
nan said:I think they meant that you could call her if you had any additional questions. Not that everyone needs to call her to have her explain the academic placement.
befmic said:You should not have to talk to the supervisor of a program to get basic information.
Here is the board policy on academic placement.
http://www.somsd.k12.nj.us/cms/lib7/nj01001050/centricity/domain/148/r2314.pdf
There is no Contract for Choice for 6th grade math but there are many opportunities to level up throughout the middle grades. Dr. Beattys can explain those in detail
If it's so clear than why do we always have a million well educated people complaining they don't understand it? And complaints about getting in touch with her, etc.
I don't understand why we force kids to be in a level. It's a public school. They can provide some levels, and suggest some levels, but they should not force you into a level. Taking a higher level class than recommended may hurt your grade, but may be better preparation for college.
max_weisenfeld said:
I do not know if this is still true, but in the past the best (and often only) way to contact Dr. Beatys was by phone. I hope she answers email now, but it was general experience less than four years ago that she did not.
She's been answering our emails for the past two years. She's been more responsive to us than anyone else in Senior Administration. Perhaps because we didn't ask her to change our kids' grades?
Parent's child doesn't get the highest grades/test scores in Math so parent tries to burn the program down? Seems to be a broken record around here.
My son loves Math. He also loves Basketball. Practices one hour each day. Dreams of making the team. Hurts a bit to watch, since he is not good enough. But I would never think to file a lawsuit demanding objective assessments of ability be removed from the criteria for making the team.
callista said:
Some 5th graders can level up by taking a class this Summer, right
Yes, and open Algebra 2 for CHS students as well.
nan said:
befmic said:You should not have to talk to the supervisor of a program to get basic information.
Here is the board policy on academic placement.
http://www.somsd.k12.nj.us/cms/lib7/nj01001050/centricity/domain/148/r2314.pdf
There is no Contract for Choice for 6th grade math but there are many opportunities to level up throughout the middle grades. Dr. Beattys can explain those in detail
My child has now graduated, so it's too late for him. I hope something finally gets changed. The math levels are placed on children too young and are too inflexible, and mysterious. My kid never made it out of level 3. In contrast, the other subject areas were more welcoming and he eventually went to level 4 and AP.
That is Dr B. in action. The amount of power she had is crazy. My kid got moved out of level 3 during freshman year of highschool. It was disruptive-- but she did well and was offered the chance to take a summer school class to move up again-- she refused.
She had high b-s in level 3 in middle school and she should have had the chance to move up they would not move her. I found Dr B. to be difficult at best.
The other issue in math levels is that once a kid is in level 4 or higher they do no get moved down unless they are failing...
maplegal said:
The other issue in math levels is that once a kid is in level 4 or higher they do no get moved down unless they are failing...
This is 100% untrue. We have personal experience with a move down at the end of a quarter for a C-. The rules are clear and objective.
Coneheads said:
maplegal said:This is 100% untrue. We have personal experience with a move down at the end of a quarter for a C-. The rules are clear and objective.
The other issue in math levels is that once a kid is in level 4 or higher they do no get moved down unless they are failing...
My experience is that the rules are not consistently applied-- there were kids with a C- for a quarter they were not moved.... I did just check chs website for the leveling criteria in the math department to see if there were changes-- appears to be moved . I could not locate it.
Coneheads said:
max_weisenfeld said:She's been answering our emails for the past two years. She's been more responsive to us than anyone else in Senior Administration. Perhaps because we didn't ask her to change our kids' grades?
I do not know if this is still true, but in the past the best (and often only) way to contact Dr. Beatys was by phone. I hope she answers email now, but it was general experience less than four years ago that she did not.
Parent's child doesn't get the highest grades/test scores in Math so parent tries to burn the program down? Seems to be a broken record around here.
My son loves Math. He also loves Basketball. Practices one hour each day. Dreams of making the team. Hurts a bit to watch, since he is not good enough. But I would never think to file a lawsuit demanding objective assessments of ability be removed from the criteria for making the team.
We are not trying to "burn the program down" or get our son's grades changed. We are simply trying to find out what our son's grade was for the PT-6 and how the district is handling the 5 or so questions that were on that test that did not have correct answers. My son spent a lot of time on the test working out the answers to those questions and writing in the "correct" answers. I don't think our request is unreasonable.
What is unreasonable is a high stakes test being given to 10/11 year olds that contains a number of questions with multiple choice answers, none of which are correct. That undermines my trust in the whole process.
It is District policy to not show the graded exams. Dr. Beattys has nothing to do with this. Your BOE does. But it's the MOL cause-celebre to blame Beattys than the BOE. Ridiculous par-for-this-course.
Coneheads said:
max_weisenfeld said:She's been answering our emails for the past two years. She's been more responsive to us than anyone else in Senior Administration. Perhaps because we didn't ask her to change our kids' grades?
I do not know if this is still true, but in the past the best (and often only) way to contact Dr. Beatys was by phone. I hope she answers email now, but it was general experience less than four years ago that she did not.
Parent's child doesn't get the highest grades/test scores in Math so parent tries to burn the program down? Seems to be a broken record around here.
Since you have no idea what our particular situation was, I would rather you don't make accusations about what I want or what I experienced. I am glad your experience has been different, but what I report has been status quo and broadly experienced for many years.
Coneheads said:
It is District policy to not show the graded exams. Dr. Beattys has nothing to do with this. Your BOE does. But it's the MOL cause-celebre to blame Beattys than the BOE. Ridiculous par-for-this-course.
The district chose to make the exams secret when they took them in-house a number of years ago to save on the cost of recreating them every year, which they would have to do if the answers became common knowledge.
While the reason is understandable, it created a climate of suspicion around the process, which was already opaque and subject to manipulation. As an involved parent who had contacts and knew how to work the system, I was able to create better results for my children.
Whatever the results, though, I think the way the math program is run in the district discourages a great many students who could be competent in math from believing in their abilities. I have a child who successfully completed AP Calc who still thinks he is not good at math because certain middle school teachers gave him that impression.
dg64 said:
I don't think Osborne left her alone because she had more power than him. It may have been because he agreed to some extent that levels in math are appropriate. I remember corresponding with him about what would happen with math levels and he was quite supportive of having levels in math.
I agree with you that most kids should be able to get to Algebra 1 by 8th grade. However, the fact that the current system is not getting them there is not solely a function of levels. The curriculum is structured in a way that spends 2 full years on Pre-algebra and 2 full years on Algebra 1. I believe that these 4 years could most likely be condensed into 3 years, but it will require changes to the curriculum as well as teacher training.
I also agree that the PT6 test results should be available to parents along with a chart that explains what it means. As far as I know, there are at most 4 levels in middle school math. What's the 5th one?
Completely agree.
We're seeing an increase in the amount of algebraic concepts being introduced in the later elementary school grades (a result of the CC?). I think that this should also help prepare more students for Algebra in middle school.
ETA: There are (3) math levels in grades 6th and 7th; (4) in 8th. So Amy is wrong about the number of Math levels in middle school.
http://www.somsd.k12.nj.us/Page/3329#summer
Coneheads said:
It is District policy to not show the graded exams. Dr. Beattys has nothing to do with this. Your BOE does. But it's the MOL cause-celebre to blame Beattys than the BOE. Ridiculous par-for-this-course.
I am with you on most of the your responses @Coneheads, but whether it is the Math Supervisor or the BOE or the Superintendent, it is not okay to not return graded exams to students. The graded exams give feedback on student performance. The few minutes that the students get to look at these exams is not enough for them to fully understand where they might have been wrong and work on reinforcing their understanding of that topic. I was told way in the past, that the exams are not returned because the same exam is used year after year. A parent can ask for a meeting to look at the exam. Still not enough to show to student what may have been an error.
dg64 said:
Coneheads said:I am with you on most of the your responses @Coneheads, but whether it is the Math Supervisor or the BOE or the Superintendent, it is not okay to not return graded exams to students. The graded exams give feedback on student performance. The few minutes that the students get to look at these exams is not enough for them to fully understand where they might have been wrong and work on reinforcing their understanding of that topic. I was told way in the past, that the exams are not returned because the same exam is used year after year. A parent can ask for a meeting to look at the exam. Still not enough to show to student what may have been an error.
It is District policy to not show the graded exams. Dr. Beattys has nothing to do with this. Your BOE does. But it's the MOL cause-celebre to blame Beattys than the BOE. Ridiculous par-for-this-course.
I don't disagree.
Please take it up with your BOE, who made the policy that Dr. Beattys follows. To falsely use this to tar Beattys reminds me of how unbelievably vile this website can be.
Coneheads said:
dg64 said:I don't disagree.
Coneheads said:I am with you on most of the your responses @Coneheads, but whether it is the Math Supervisor or the BOE or the Superintendent, it is not okay to not return graded exams to students. The graded exams give feedback on student performance. The few minutes that the students get to look at these exams is not enough for them to fully understand where they might have been wrong and work on reinforcing their understanding of that topic. I was told way in the past, that the exams are not returned because the same exam is used year after year. A parent can ask for a meeting to look at the exam. Still not enough to show to student what may have been an error.
It is District policy to not show the graded exams. Dr. Beattys has nothing to do with this. Your BOE does. But it's the MOL cause-celebre to blame Beattys than the BOE. Ridiculous par-for-this-course.
Please take it up with your BOE, who made the policy that Dr. Beattys follows. To falsely use this to tar Beattys reminds me of how unbelievably vile this website can be.
I'm glad that you know it is policy but as a parent going through the school system with their first child, it is not known to me. In fact, not having gone to school in the US, the whole process is new to me.
I have "tarred" no-one, I have blamed no-one. I have simply reported a fact - my two e-mails and two phone calls to Dr. Beattys - who we were instructed to contact if we had any queries - have not been responded to.
I have not asked to see my son's exam. Simply know what he scored,as we are missing a big piece of the jigsaw that decides math placement. The other pieces all solidly point in one direction, a direction that was not taken by his math placement. We need to understand what happened and why, so that we can assist our son in navigating the next year of math.
Expecting the common courtesy of a response to my e-mail, even if that e-mail says "I'm sorry, due to district policy I cannot give you that information, please contact xxxxxx" is not an unreasonable request for a parent of a child in this district. I am sorry that you find our concerns "vile"
We tend to think of our towns as small towns. But the District is not small, in terms of the ratio of students to staff. CHS is a very large campus by every definition. It would be impractical for the District to have a system where every situation was handled by anecdote. The District has a system in place for things to be handled objectively, with a role for parental involvement. Powerschool is excellent, and you are one click away from emailing any teacher about anything you find on there. The most we ever waited for a reply was one week, which seemed reasonable to us.
Coneheads said:
We tend to think of our towns as small towns. But the District is not small, in terms of the ratio of students to staff. CHS is a very large campus by every definition. It would be impractical for the District to have a system where every situation was handled by anecdote. The District has a system in place for things to be handled objectively, with a role for parental involvement. Powerschool is excellent, and you are one click away from emailing any teacher about anything you find on there. The most we ever waited for a reply was one week, which seemed reasonable to us.
Parents of rising 6th graders do not yet have access to PowerSchool so, no, we are not "one click away from e-mailing any teacher". That is why the math placement letters instruct us to contact Dr. Beattys
I don't know if this image will come through. It shows a Facebook post by math supervisor Kimberly Beane. In it, she states:
"It's Saturday, and I'm still in fight or flight mode from the week. Come at me, bears. I will not accelerate your cubs."
Not sure what to make of this, but it certainly is a strange way to refer to parents concerned or upset about their children's math placement process and decision.
Coneheads, Do you have the number for the board policy that forbids the math department from giving back the exams or the scores children receive on them? Thanks.
I can't believe she posted that on Facebook, but I'm not surprised by the sentiment. Fortunately, Math is the only department that thinks that way.
MichaelParis said:
I don't know if this image will come through. It shows a Facebook post by math supervisor Kimberly Beane. In it, she states:
"It's Saturday, and I'm still in fight or flight mode from the week. Come at me, bears. I will not accelerate your cubs."
Not sure what to make of this, but it certainly is a strange way to refer to parents concerned or upset about their children's math placement process and decision.
Wow. That is so offensive. I can't wait to hear her explaination as to what she is referring to other than the SOMA Math Placement process. That should involve some serious creativity on her part.
MichaelParis said:
I don't know if this image will come through. It shows a Facebook post by math supervisor Kimberly Beane. In it, she states:
"It's Saturday, and I'm still in fight or flight mode from the week. Come at me, bears. I will not accelerate your cubs."
Not sure what to make of this, but it certainly is a strange way to refer to parents concerned or upset about their children's math placement process and decision.
I find Kim Bean's post rather amusing. Good to see that someone in the district has a sense of humor about frustration with bureaucracy (from both sides it seems).
Would it be too much to ask for people posted with their identities? Who are you Coneheads? Hard to read these posts without assuming you are working with, or for, the math supervisor. I know, I know. It's your constitutional right or something like that to remain anonymous. I'm just a naturally curious person.
At any rate, thank for posting the district grid, TDB. I counted: there are 4 levels in math in 8th grade and 5 in 9th grade, three of which at any given time look almost identical in terms of content. A lot of precision very little clarity.
amyhiger said:Yes.
Would it be too much to ask for people posted with their identities?
Have we not been through this enough times? Really?!?
amyhiger said:
At any rate, thank for posting the district grid, TDB. I counted: there are 4 levels in math in 8th grade and 5 in 9th grade, three of which at any given time look almost identical in terms of content. A lot of precision very little clarity.
Is that you admitting you were wrong and that there aren't "up to 5 levels in math in middle school".
9th grade is high school.
Yes, Coneheads, whoever you are, please produce the district policy to which you refer. Show us the school board policy that says that the math department, and only the math department, need not return corrected exams or placement tests to students. Either way, whether it is the BOE's policy or the math supervisor's, it is dead wrong. But it does matter. If Ms. Beattys is carrying out the specific and clear policies of the BOE, then you have a point. I'm willing to be convinced that we should blame the BOE, and not the math supervisor. So, yes, please show us.
I spoke with Ms. Beattys recently by phone. I started out determined to make a reasonable request for my 5th grade daughter to placed in Level 4, where she clearly should be placed. What stood between my daughter and that result was a difference of 3 points on a one-day, three hour 6th grade placement test--a test, it seems, that contained errors. If it did, then the district should not be allowed to use it to make its rigid, "the rules are the rules," placement decisions. Listening to her talk about what she thinks these scores mean ("your daughter has a problem with whole numbers") was simply infuriating. I felt like I was speaking with Professor Dolores Umbridge from the Harry Potter books. I'm sure she believes in what she is doing--that is, I'm sure that she is in good faith and feels that she is defending "rigor" against the gathering "barbarians" (so many of them in our community)--but it is really long past time for the BOE to step in and make some necessary changes here. Enough is enough.
Yes. Have we not been through this enough times? Really?!?
Yes, really.
Is that you admitting you were wrong and that there aren't "up to 5 levels in math in middle school".
9th grade is high school.
Thank you. Yes. I do understand that, and I do know that 9th grade is indeed high school. So, thank you: 4 levels in middle school, 5 in high school. I was wrong. You were right.
And the substance? Are there any differences here between "intro to algebra" and "discovering algebra"? Between "advanced honors" and "honors"? Monty Python comes to mind here. Are 4 levels of math in middle school necessary? Why? What is the justification for this?
Forgive me if I'm so old school that I see these classifications as nothing more than someone's late-night attempt to come up with words to justify something that in full daylight would be impossible to justify.
amyhiger said:
Thank you. Yes. I do understand that, and I do know that 9th grade is indeed high school. So, thank you: 4 levels in middle school, 5 in high school. I was wrong. You were right.
And the substance? Are there any differences here between "intro to algebra" and "discovering algebra"? Between "advanced honors" and "honors"? Monty Python comes to mind here. Are 4 levels of math in middle school necessary? Why? What is the justification for this?
I wasn't debating the need for 4 levels in middle school math, and I've already said I agree with getting more kids to Algebra I by 8th grade.
I just want the dis-information and hyperbole to stop.
In the middle schools, it used to be that "Level 5 Math" was the accelerated program where incoming 6th graders take 7th grade math; incoming 7th graders take 8th grade math and incoming 8th graders go to the high school and take Geometry. I know they still have the accelerated program, but since they no longer seem to publish the "student participation" charts which they previously included in the Appendix to the State of the District Report, I am not sure if they have changed the terminoligy.
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Two phone messages and two e-mails, none of which Dr. Beattys responded to. I finally contacted Susan Grierson and she responded to my e-mail straight away saying she would have someone contact me. Almost a week later and silence. All I have been asking for is the result of my son's PT-6 math placement test. Why the secrecy? Why not simply include the results of the math placement tests on the math placement letters?
I am now at the point where I will be submitting an official records request just to find out how my son did on a district administered test - the whole thing is quite ridiculous.