No Trade War-We Already Lost
So Kudlow resigns or is fired in this month or May? Someone needs to put a straight jacket on Trump and find a nice padded room for him.
tjohn said:
Please return to your seats and fasten your seatbelts. It's going to be a bumpy ride in the markets tomorrow. Dumpster is threatening China with another 100 billion in tariffs.
Just heard that and I was confused as I thought the message a few days ago was that the last threat was merely an opening negotiation. This has gone from a need to tweet constantly, a need to sign executive orders with a flourish, a need to hold increasingly frequent public meetings, a need to hold rallies to a need to daily blow up the market. What's left, declarations of war?
jimmurphy said:terp said: Seems fair to me. The person renovating their kitchen valued the labor at more than $20 an hour. The laborer valued the $20 more than their labor. Everyone wins.Agreed. We can’t completely throw out the laws of supply and demand.drummerboy said: It's not that American workers won't do the "back breaking" labor. It's that they won't do it at the wages that are being offered. That's an important fact. And a troublesome one. Hard labor should be worth more than poverty wages, whether it's carpentry or picking apples. But we like our cheap produce so we'd rather not do anything about it. And I wouldn't call $20 an hour for renovating a kitchen "fair" by any stretch of the imagination. Fair to whom?
ah yes, the holy law of supply and demand.
Sorry I blasphemed.
I'm trying to understand your problem with this. The person renovating their kitchen is happy with the arrangement. The laborer is happy with it as well.
The problem with these situations is people who will sit back and judge because it violates some preconceived sensibilities they have. That's usually where the problem starts.
Do you ever notice that these high and mighty types never do anything to help? They just make it harder on everyone.
drummerboy said:
drummerboy said:
jimmurphy said:terp said: Seems fair to me. The person renovating their kitchen valued the labor at more than $20 an hour. The laborer valued the $20 more than their labor. Everyone wins.Agreed. We can’t completely throw out the laws of supply and demand.drummerboy said: It's not that American workers won't do the "back breaking" labor. It's that they won't do it at the wages that are being offered. That's an important fact. And a troublesome one. Hard labor should be worth more than poverty wages, whether it's carpentry or picking apples. But we like our cheap produce so we'd rather not do anything about it. And I wouldn't call $20 an hour for renovating a kitchen "fair" by any stretch of the imagination. Fair to whom?
ah yes, the holy law of supply and demand.
Sorry I blasphemed.
I don't know what a fair wage is but there is definitely a pattern of cognitive dissonance about this on MOL. There are regular non-political posts from people seeking recommendations for goods and services at, in words or substance, the "best" prices. But in the context of a political discussion, there is a lot of talk of fair wages.
drummerboy said:
drummerboy said:
jimmurphy said:terp said: Seems fair to me. The person renovating their kitchen valued the labor at more than $20 an hour. The laborer valued the $20 more than their labor. Everyone wins.Agreed. We can’t completely throw out the laws of supply and demand.drummerboy said: It's not that American workers won't do the "back breaking" labor. It's that they won't do it at the wages that are being offered. That's an important fact. And a troublesome one. Hard labor should be worth more than poverty wages, whether it's carpentry or picking apples. But we like our cheap produce so we'd rather not do anything about it. And I wouldn't call $20 an hour for renovating a kitchen "fair" by any stretch of the imagination. Fair to whom?
ah yes, the holy law of supply and demand.
Sorry I blasphemed.
A homeowner seeking renovation and a day laborer seeking employment may be in an equal bargaining position. I do not know how the $20.00 per hour figure was arrived at between the parties.
OTOH if the laborer is "undocumented" that can skew the market. The "contract" may in fact be illegal.
LOST, not to put words in your mouth, but did you mean “may not be in” or “in an unequal”?
Mnuchin is on CNBC and said farmers would be protected. This article appeared in Reuters today - the farm bill could be used to protect farmers - at the expense of taxpayers.
cramer said:
Mnuchin is on CNBC and said farmers would be protected. This article appeared in Reuters today - the farm bill could be used to protect farmers - at the expense of taxpayers. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trade-china-protections/farm-bill-could-be-used-to-shield-u-s-farmers-from-trade-spat-senator-idUSKCN1HD23I?utm_campaign=trueAnthem:+Trending+Content&utm_content=5ac7a2e204d3013b77c0de64&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter
Love those free-market conservatives.
Yes, undocumented, I believe.
I have to add that when I was driving with one of the guys to get some plywood, we passed a Trump sign ( months after the election and nobody took it off the tree)and I saw him look at me. Then I started a conversation about his family back home. He said he wanted to “stay here a little longer but with Trump...I don’t know.” I said, Oh El Diablo? And we both laughed out loud.
LOST said:
A homeowner seeking renovation and a day laborer seeking employment may be in an equal bargaining position. I do not know how the $20.00 per hour figure was arrived at between the parties.
OTOH if the laborer is "undocumented" that can skew the market. The "contract" may in fact be illegal.
cramer said:
Mnuchin is on CNBC and said farmers would be protected. This article appeared in Reuters today - the farm bill could be used to protect farmers - at the expense of taxpayers.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trade-china-protections/farm-bill-could-be-used-to-shield-u-s-farmers-from-trade-spat-senator-idUSKCN1HD23I?utm_campaign=trueAnthem:+Trending+Content&utm_content=5ac7a2e204d3013b77c0de64&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter
What else is new.
Farmers have been sucking on America's teat for as long as I remember. The generous agricultural subsidies, the ethanol boondoggle, etc.
And they have the nerve to complain about us, the Blue States. We're the ones who are productive, the drivers of the economy.
DaveSchmidt said:
LOST, not to put words in your mouth, but did you mean “may not be in” or “in an unequal”?
Not at all. The homeowner may have difficulty finding workers whom he can afford to pay. The laborer may have other offers. I have no idea of the size of the home or the financial condition of the homeowner. He may desperately need the renovations but be unable to afford a regular contractor. It's possible that the worker has a number of jobs from which to choose.
"In his statement Thursday evening, Trump said the new tariffs under consideration would be a direct response to China’s retaliation this week. He also said he has “instructed the Secretary of Agriculture, with the support of other members of my Cabinet, to use his broad authority to implement a plan to protect our farmers and agricultural interests.”
It was unclear precisely what he wanted Agriculture Secretary Sonny Perdue to do. But trade analysts warned that if Trump is considering additional subsidies to protect farmers from Chinese retaliatory tariffs that could expand the U.S.-China trade spat to other powerhouse agricultural countries like Australia, Brazil and Argentina.
“If Trump pays farmers with subsidies, other farmers around the world will object. Suddenly, big agricultural producers in the rest of the world will be drawn into this fight. This has the potential to escalate this way beyond the U.S.-China box,” Bown said."
At $20/hr, you will probably get what you pay for (and no guarantees). That is less than half of what I normally ask for.
A bit late on this, but on the topic of immigration and wages, what I often see missing is accounting for the fact that immigrants are more than just "labor." Even a low wage laborer has to eat, has to sleep, and does things for entertainment. And if they stay around long enough, many also have families. In other words -- they create demand, not merely provide a supply of labor.
Exactly how the generated demand offsets the increased supply of labor a given immigrant provides can be subject to discussion and study, but any analysis that simplistically talks about immigration solely in terms of its effect on the labor supply isn't doing it right.
I'll also note that if we were actually worried about immigration for economic reasons, steps like enforcing minimum wage laws and safety standards for all employers and worksites would remove much of the incentive for hiring undocumented labor, and making it easier for laborers to get across the border would reduce the "extra" laborers during economic downturns (because they'd be less scared to go back across the border to their countries of origin when there was insufficient work here. Allowing for greater volume of safe, legal border crossings would help the labor pool naturally regulate itself).
db, if you pay a laborer what they ask for per hour, is there a problem with the arrangement?
It appears that you somehow do NOT feel that this is a fair wage (namely, $20/hour mentioned ina prior post). Should we not respect what two consenting adults agree upon?
drummerboy said:
drummerboy said:
drummerboy said:
drummerboy said:
drummerboy said:
drummerboy said:
drummerboy said:
drummerboy said:
jimmurphy said:terp said: Seems fair to me. The person renovating their kitchen valued the labor at more than $20 an hour. The laborer valued the $20 more than their labor. Everyone wins.Agreed. We can’t completely throw out the laws of supply and demand.drummerboy said: It's not that American workers won't do the "back breaking" labor. It's that they won't do it at the wages that are being offered. That's an important fact. And a troublesome one. Hard labor should be worth more than poverty wages, whether it's carpentry or picking apples. But we like our cheap produce so we'd rather not do anything about it. And I wouldn't call $20 an hour for renovating a kitchen "fair" by any stretch of the imagination. Fair to whom?
ah yes, the holy law of supply and demand.
Sorry I blasphemed.
Yeah, just like the tea party folks in congress that would never vote for deficit spending (under Obama that is). Republican's principles are strictly contextual it seems.
dave23 said:
cramer said:Love those free-market conservatives.
Mnuchin is on CNBC and said farmers would be protected. This article appeared in Reuters today - the farm bill could be used to protect farmers - at the expense of taxpayers. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trade-china-protections/farm-bill-could-be-used-to-shield-u-s-farmers-from-trade-spat-senator-idUSKCN1HD23I?utm_campaign=trueAnthem:+Trending+Content&utm_content=5ac7a2e204d3013b77c0de64&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter
You're right. I think we should hire doctors from street corners, as long as the price is right.
RealityForAll said:
db, if you pay a laborer what they ask for per hour, is there a problem with the arrangement? It appears that you somehow do NOT feel that this is a fair wage (namely, $20/hour mentioned ina prior post). Should we not respect what two consenting adults agree upon?
Does the fact that someone agreed to build a kitchen for the equivalent of a $40,000 North Jersey salary (with zero benefits) shield the arrangement from criticism? Do we never agree to things under conditions that we think stink, because the alternative is worse?
DaveSchmidt said:
Does the fact that someone agreed to build a kitchen for the equivalent of a $40,000 North Jersey salary (with zero benefits) shield the arrangement from criticism? Do we never agree to things under conditions that we think stink, because the alternative is worse?
It works out as more than $40k, though, because there's no income tax paid on it.
Question amended: the equivalent of a $47,000 North Jersey salary (including two weeks of vacation).
DaveSchmidt said:
Question amended: the equivalent of a $47,000 North Jersey salary (including two weeks of vacation).
I find the first question confusing.
When I first arrived here, I worked in construction for $100 a day. I "upgraded" to a job as a waiter for $2.13 an hour. I agreed to both compensation arrangements, as I agreed to my current one - which isn't all that great, either.
ridski said:
DaveSchmidt said:I find the first question confusing. When I first arrived here, I worked in construction for $100 a day. I "upgraded" to a job as a waiter for $2.13 an hour. I agreed to both compensation arrangements, as I agreed to my current one - which isn't all that great, either.
Question amended: the equivalent of a $47,000 North Jersey salary (including two weeks of vacation).
It may not be all that great, but you agreed to it, so be happy. For some, that appears to be a sufficient response to labor arrangements that aren’t all that great. My question (admittedly not a very deep one) was: Is it?
well, why is it ok for carpenters but not for doctors?
jimmurphy said:
Reductio ad absurdism.
Nice...
It is the same process. Though, doctors don't tend to hang out on street corners looking for work.
Doctors tend to possess very scarce skills and credentials. Thus, they typically have much more bargaining power than a day laborer. However, the process is essentially the same.
drummerboy said:
well, why is it ok for carpenters but not for doctors?
jimmurphy said:
Reductio ad absurdism.
Nice...
doctors have scarce skills largely because they control who gets to practice. e.g. They make it almost impossible for doctors trained in other countries to practice here. For no other reason than to keep their own salaries high.
Carpenters have no control over that.
Look, we hired a guy to help with demo and basic framing. Then hired another to help with Sheetrock. We didn’t hire guys to do the complete renovation. They had skill and their own tools to assist us when we needed it. My husband and myself did most of the work ourselves, minus plumbing and electric. They didn’t build the cabinets or restructure anything. It was basic reframing nothing structural.
A number of years ago a friend of ours asked my husband if he wanted to make a few bucks helping frame an inside area of his boss’s house. He wasn’t working at the time and took the $20/hr also.
My point of even mentioning my story was that there are people who cry there is no work, they don’t want to do the hard stuff or try to find work but will cry about immigrants “taking their jobs”. These are some of the same people that tell the starving people to move to where the food is but won’t move themselves elsewhere to find a job....
That may, and is, likely true. But that is just a distortion of the market introduced by a licensing scheme. It's no that dissimilar from minimum wage distortions. They just lock different people out of the labor market.
At the transaction level the pricing process is the same though. Although, distortions to that pricing mechanism can and do exist. And people lobby and argue for them all the time.
drummerboy said:
doctors have scarce skills largely because they control who gets to practice. e.g. They make it almost impossible for doctors trained in other countries to practice here. For no other reason than to keep their own salaries high.
Carpenters have no control over that.
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Please return to your seats and fasten your seatbelts. It's going to be a bumpy ride in the markets tomorrow. Dumpster is threatening China with another 100 billion in tariffs.