Reagan's racist comments
drummerboy said:This is really getting idiotic.
The U.S. is ruled by white men. They are the only institutional power that matters.
I feel silly even having to point this out.
Italians and Irish were at one time not considered to be white (or perhaps as the other). For purposes of your definition (set forth above), are those of either Irish or Italian descent considered to be white? It seems not all whites have the same background or grand narrative here in the US.
See: https://www.amazon.com/Irish-B...
And also see: https://www.amazon.com/Vendett...
My understanding is that you are attempting to address historical inequities and institutional power which arose in the past. It seems somehow difficult to hold those of either Irish or Italian descent as being responsible for institutional power being that their nationalities were treated in the past, at a minimum, as outsiders, and sometimes as the victims of institutional power.
proeasdf said:
For purposes of your definition (set forth above), are those of either Irish or Italian descent considered to be white?
really?
ml1 said:
proeasdf said:
For purposes of your definition (set forth above), are those of either Irish or Italian descent considered to be white?
really?
Take a look at the book authored by Ignatiev [phonetic] for which I provided a link in my prior posting.
proeasdf said:
Only if you assume that only one group can, or has, institutional power. I never made any claim of the sort.DaveSchmidt said:
First, if you’re going to argue that Jews have institutional power, DB’s analysis means only that Jews can be racist.
You may be confusing “means only that Jews” with “means that only Jews.”
With that, I wish you luck in your continuing quest for understanding on this topic.
DaveSchmidt said:
proeasdf said:
Only if you assume that only one group can, or has, institutional power. I never made any claim of the sort.DaveSchmidt said:
First, if you’re going to argue that Jews have institutional power, DB’s analysis means only that Jews can be racist.
You may be confusing “means only that Jews” with “means that only Jews.”
With that, I wish you luck in your continuing quest for understanding on this topic.
And, good luck to you also.
proeasdf said:
Take a look at the book authored by Ignatiev [phonetic] for which I provided a link in my prior posting.
pretty sure that no one needs to read a book to know the answer to your question, which I'm having a hard time believing is "sincere."
ml1 said:
proeasdf said:
Take a look at the book authored by Ignatiev [phonetic] for which I provided a link in my prior posting.
pretty sure that no one needs to read a book to know the answer to your question, which I'm having a hard time believing is "sincere."
Once again, you are projecting your stereotypes and biases onto others (in this instance, me, proeasdf). You have no evidence or rational basis for such projection. Most would describe your conclusion as a smear.
PS Several years ago, I briefly met Ignatiev when I was visiting relatives and walking around MassArt (where Ignatiev teaches/taught). We did not discuss any of Ignatiev's books or publications.
proeasdf said:
Once again, you are projecting your stereotypes and biases onto others (in this instance, me, proeasdf). You have no evidence or rational basis for such projection. Most would describe your conclusion as a smear.
PS Several years ago, I briefly met Ignatiev when I was visiting relatives and walking around MassArt (where Ignatiev teaches/taught). We did not discuss any of Ignatiev's books or publications.
do you sincerely believe that there is any possibility that in today's U.S., Irish-Americans and Italian-Americans are not considered white? Do you think any of them are checking any other box on surveys other than "White or Caucasian?" This is not my stereotype. Ask anyone who's ever watched cable news if Sean Hannity and Chris Cuomo are white.
ml1 said:
proeasdf said:
Once again, you are projecting your stereotypes and biases onto others (in this instance, me, proeasdf). You have no evidence or rational basis for such projection. Most would describe your conclusion as a smear.
PS Several years ago, I briefly met Ignatiev when I was visiting relatives and walking around MassArt (where Ignatiev teaches/taught). We did not discuss any of Ignatiev's books or publications.
do you sincerely believe that there is any possibility that in today's U.S., Irish-Americans and Italian-Americans are not considered white? Do you think any of them are checking any other box on surveys other than "White or Caucasian?" This is not my stereotype. Ask anyone who's ever watched cable news if Sean Hannity and Chris Cuomo are white.
So what nationalities, ethnicities or religions do you consider to be white?
Being that the Italians and Irish were not treated as "white" in the past, should Italians and Irish be treated as white for purposes of determining what group(s) have institutional power today?
proeasdf said:
So what nationalities, ethnicities or religions do you consider to be white?
Being that the Italians and Irish were not treated as "white" in the past, should Italians and Irish be treated as white for purposes of determining what group(s) have institutional power today?
what do you think?
And right now you're hitting pedantic, obtuse and argumentative all at once. Congratulations.
ml1 said:
proeasdf said:
So what nationalities, ethnicities or religions do you consider to be white?
Being that the Italians and Irish were not treated as "white" in the past, should Italians and Irish be treated as white for purposes of determining what group(s) have institutional power today?
what do you think?
And right now you're hitting pedantic, obtuse and argumentative all at once. Congratulations.
The rare MOL Trifecta!
ml1 said:
proeasdf said:
So what nationalities, ethnicities or religions do you consider to be white?
Being that the Italians and Irish were not treated as "white" in the past, should Italians and Irish be treated as white for purposes of determining what group(s) have institutional power today?
what do you think?
And right now you're hitting pedantic, obtuse and argumentative all at once. Congratulations.
For those of us who are obtuse, slow-witted, doltish, stupid, and unintelligent like myself, please educate me by responding to my questions set forth above.
PS I believe that Ignatiev's book, How the Irish Became White, demonstrates that race is a social construct (otherwise how could the Irish place in the US hierarchy have substantially changed in about 150 years).
proeasdf said:
It seems somehow difficult to hold those of either Irish or Italian descent as being responsible for institutional power being that their nationalities were treated in the past, at a minimum, as outsiders, and sometimes as the victims of institutional power
Fears:
Based on the section in bold, I'm sensing some fear of feeling guilt or remorse.
Along with a Boris Johnson type of buffoonery that seems to cover for a fear of appearing stupid or unprepared... as well as covering for some even bigger fears.
sprout said:
proeasdf said:
It seems somehow difficult to hold those of either Irish or Italian descent as being responsible for institutional power being that their nationalities were treated in the past, at a minimum, as outsiders, and sometimes as the victims of institutional power
Fears:
Based on the section in bold, I'm sensing some fear of feeling guilt or remorse.
Along with a Boris Johnson bit of buffoonery that seems to cover for a fear of appearing stupid or unprepared.
Goldwater Rule: The ethical principle, in place since 1973, guides physician members of the American Psychiatric Association ("APA") to refrain from publicly issuing professional medical opinions about individuals that they have not personally evaluated in a professional setting or context. Doing otherwise undermines the credibility and integrity of the profession and the physician-patient relationship. Although APA's ethical guidelines can only be enforced against APA members, we urge all psychiatrists, regardless of membership, to abide by this guidance in respect of our patients and our profession.
See: https://www.psychiatry.org/new...
Thus, if you are an APA member psychiatrist you are violating APA rules of professional ethics. Conversely, if you are not an APA member psychiatrist, opinions are like noses in that everyone has one.
I'm not a therapist. I've just been helped to better understand myself by better understanding my family, my history, and my own fears, by a few insightful ones.
When someone asks a question and the answers they get back aren't what they expect, or are ones they disagree with, or ones that challenge the premise of their question, they have a few choices. They could engage with those answering them and try to understand why their responses differ from what the questioner expected, share in return why they were surprised or puzzled by the answers, and find at the very least they they'd gain some perspective they didn't have before. But, that presumes a certain open attitude.
Another approach is to dismiss any answer that doesn't conform to what they expected. Such a person is not actually asking a question, of course, just making statements disguised as questions (and a poor disguise at that).
Take the latest questions around the white identity of Irish and Italian Americans. Proseasdf could, if they wanted, follow the natural line of questions that arise from this -- why were the Irish not seen as "white" early on? How did they "become" white? Why did they become white? What does this reveal about the nature of whiteness? What does the nature of whiteness reveal about the concept of race? What does race tell us about America?
Now this is all a lot of work, and one thing we know about proseasdf is that he is not a fan of homework. Some question -- the really interesting and good ones -- do require quite a bit of work, even when you get other people on a message board to help you out and point you in some promising directions. You still have to do the work yourself in the end. But again, that all assumes you're actually asking questions and not just making statements.
Some random answers for proeasdf
1. Everybody YOU think is white- is white. That's the way it works. No need to ask around.
2. Institutions are big slow-moving things that govern the way you live. You're usually in one when you have to go get some kind of papers signed, stamped, validated or notarized. In this country, all institutions were created by white men for their benefit and for the benefit of other white people. If you run the institutions you run the country. There are other institutions like marriage which was designed partially for torture.
3. Whiteness can be conferred on people or populations (ie: Irish, Italians, a young OJ and George Zimmerman). Whiteness cannot be conferred on Black or brown people permanently because whiteness.
4. Dogs are never cats
5. Any religion that YOU think is a white religion is a white religion (trust me on this, it's just easier this way)
7. Yes, we've skipped number 6 just to be confusing
.
PVW said:
When someone asks a question and the answers they get back aren't what they expect, or are ones they disagree with, or ones that challenge the premise of their question, they have a few choices. They could engage with those answering them and try to understand why their responses differ from what the questioner expected, share in return why they were surprised or puzzled by the answers, and find at the very least they they'd gain some perspective they didn't have before. But, that presumes a certain open attitude.
Another approach is to dismiss any answer that doesn't conform to what they expected. Such a person is not actually asking a question, of course, just making statements disguised as questions (and a poor disguise at that).
Take the latest questions around the white identity of Irish and Italian Americans. Proseasdf could, if they wanted, follow the natural line of questions that arise from this -- why were the Irish not seen as "white" early on? How did they "become" white? Why did they become white? What does this reveal about the nature of whiteness? What does the nature of whiteness reveal about the concept of race? What does race tell us about America?
Now this is all a lot of work, and one thing we know about proseasdf is that he is not a fan of homework. Some question -- the really interesting and good ones -- do require quite a bit of work, even when you get other people on a message board to help you out and point you in some promising directions. You still have to do the work yourself in the end. But again, that all assumes you're actually asking questions and not just making statements.
Sounds like you want to hand out homework. Which would make you the teacher and me the student. Again, message boards are for sharing ideas not assigning homework. IMHO, message boards should be egalitarian and, therefore, reject your attempt to judge me based on your non-egalitarian concepts (whereby learning, under PVW's concept, is a one way transfer with you, PVW, as teacher and others as student, including myself).
PS In my 648pm post, I explained that it appears Ignatiev's book regarding the Irish proves the race is a social construct. No opinion on Ignatiev and race-as-social-construct because you only want to discuss other issues.
proeasdf said:
IMHO, message boards should be egalitarian and, therefore, reject your attempt to judge me based on your non-egalitarian concepts (whereby learning, under PVW's concept, is a one way transfer with you, PVW, as teacher and others as student, including myself).
Add a fear of learning.
sprout said:
proeasdf said:
IMHO, message boards should be egalitarian and, therefore, reject your attempt to judge me based on your non-egalitarian concepts (whereby learning, under PVW's concept, is a one way transfer with you, PVW, as teacher and others as student, including myself).
Add a fear of learning.
Bingo. Is that self-preservation?
@proeasdf another answer for you to ignore: Yes, race is a social construct- now what?
flimbro said:
sprout said:
proeasdf said:
IMHO, message boards should be egalitarian and, therefore, reject your attempt to judge me based on your non-egalitarian concepts (whereby learning, under PVW's concept, is a one way transfer with you, PVW, as teacher and others as student, including myself).
Add a fear of learning.
Bingo. Is that self-preservation?
Hmm...I dunno. I thought I had most of the fears to draw on, but the fear of learning doesn't feel familiar.
Hey, @drummerboy -- When you get into one of your obstinate fear-of-learning ruts, what's that about? Is it self-preservation?
proeasdf said:
For those of us who are obtuse, slow-witted, doltish, stupid, and unintelligent like myself, please educate me by responding to my questions set forth above.
PS I believe that Ignatiev's book, How the Irish Became White, demonstrates that race is a social construct (otherwise how could the Irish place in the US hierarchy have substantially changed in about 150 years).
I don't think you're unintelligent. I think you are being purposefully obtuse in order to avoid the discussion that many other people here would like to have on racism.
And I'm under no obligation to answer questions posed by anyone here, but especially by someone like you who seems to be trying to derail the conversation with your "questions."
flimbro said:
If you run the institutions you run the country. There are other institutions like marriage which was designed partially for torture.
Worth the entire thread.
sprout said:
flimbro said:
sprout said:
proeasdf said:
IMHO, message boards should be egalitarian and, therefore, reject your attempt to judge me based on your non-egalitarian concepts (whereby learning, under PVW's concept, is a one way transfer with you, PVW, as teacher and others as student, including myself).
Add a fear of learning.
Bingo. Is that self-preservation?
Hmm...I dunno. I thought I had most of the fears to draw on, but the fear of learning doesn't feel familiar.
Hey, @drummerboy -- When you get into one of your obstinate fear-of-learning ruts, what's that about? Is it self-preservation?
obstinate? moi?
proeasdf said:
Sounds like you want to hand out homework. Which would make you the teacher and me the student. Again, message boards are for sharing ideas not assigning homework. IMHO, message boards should be egalitarian and, therefore, reject your attempt to judge me based on your non-egalitarian concepts (whereby learning, under PVW's concept, is a one way transfer with you, PVW, as teacher and others as student, including myself).
PS In my 648pm post, I explained that it appears Ignatiev's book regarding the Irish proves the race is a social construct. No opinion on Ignatiev and race-as-social-construct because you only want to discuss other issues.
Those truly asking questions realize that they hand themselves out homework, and that we are all both teachers and students to each other. Nothing is more non-egalitarian than someone on a message board who insists he has nothing to learn.
As for race being a social construct, so is money. Let me know how that works out when you pay your rent or mortgage.
PVW said:
proeasdf said:
Sounds like you want to hand out homework. Which would make you the teacher and me the student. Again, message boards are for sharing ideas not assigning homework. IMHO, message boards should be egalitarian and, therefore, reject your attempt to judge me based on your non-egalitarian concepts (whereby learning, under PVW's concept, is a one way transfer with you, PVW, as teacher and others as student, including myself).
PS In my 648pm post, I explained that it appears Ignatiev's book regarding the Irish proves the race is a social construct. No opinion on Ignatiev and race-as-social-construct because you only want to discuss other issues.
Those truly asking questions realize that they hand themselves out homework, and that we are all both teachers and students to each other. Nothing is more non-egalitarian than someone on a message board who insists he has nothing to learn.
As for race being a social construct, so is money. Let me know how that works out when you pay your rent or mortgage.
Never said "insists he has nothing to learn." You are attempting to smear me because I am asking questions (that you, and others, do not want asked apparently).
PVW said:
proeasdf said:
Sounds like you want to hand out homework. Which would make you the teacher and me the student. Again, message boards are for sharing ideas not assigning homework. IMHO, message boards should be egalitarian and, therefore, reject your attempt to judge me based on your non-egalitarian concepts (whereby learning, under PVW's concept, is a one way transfer with you, PVW, as teacher and others as student, including myself).
PS In my 648pm post, I explained that it appears Ignatiev's book regarding the Irish proves the race is a social construct. No opinion on Ignatiev and race-as-social-construct because you only want to discuss other issues.
Those truly asking questions realize that they hand themselves out homework, and that we are all both teachers and students to each other. Nothing is more non-egalitarian than someone on a message board who insists he has nothing to learn.
But tousling one's hair and playing the buffoon is just so much easier.
proeasdf said:
Never said "insists he has nothing to learn." You are attempting to smear me because I am asking questions (that you, and others, do not want asked apparently).
you're right. several of us don't want to deal with questions that have self-evident answers and take the discussion on a tangent.
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Sounds like you would be in agreement with a 05202019 article by Nathan Robinson of the Guardian entitled "Rich white men rule America. How much longer will we tolerate that?" With a byline of "Minority rule has always been a feature of American democracy. These days, however, it is getting worse"
See: https://www.theguardian.com/co...