Sarah and the Red Hen

Klinker said:?
 NYT:Trump Criticizes Restaurant Refusing to Serve His Press Secretary
Mr. Trump’s criticism of the restaurant — calling it “dirty” and “filthy” — was notably more animated than his defense of Ms. Sanders, whom he called “a fine person,” suggesting the degree to which the president has cooled to his press secretary, according to people close to him.
Mr. Trump routinely asks people privately what they think of Ms. Sanders, and has told her he is going to “grade” her on public appearances. He has viewed her as weak, these people say, ever since the White House Correspondents Dinner in April, when Ms. Sanders sat at the head table listening to a brutal roast of her by a comedian, without getting up to walk out in protest.

Perhaps I misspoke.  Maybe he is going to keep the "weak" press secretary who he grades on her performances.  That said, given the job description, I still think Bagdad Bob would do a better job.  The man has real experience.

Trump has surrounded himself with sycophantic snakes. One thing I learned about snakes is if you ask them privately what they think of someone else its always something bad.

Snakes make themselves look better, divert from their own shortcomings, by shifting focus to those they denigrate. 

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/ice-dont-collaborate-with-fascists_us_5b2a8d94e4b05d6c16ca0e0e

shoshannah said:

drummerboy said:
I'm not crazy about what's been happening here. I don't think Trump staffers deserve much respect, but these kinds of actions can backfire. Trumpers tend to be a bit fanatical , and after actions like what Maxine Waters did yesterday, I can see this stuff leading to violence at some point. 

And frankly, I think Trump is just itching for that to happen. He can't wait to be in charge of a violent mob.

 I do not think we should care one iota about what they think about our actions. We are fighting for the future of this country. We are fighting for OUR futures. If I owned a business, no way would I serve a member of a regime that is leading us toward fascism. 
Paraphrasing a tweet I read: Nobody living in an authoritarian regime ever said, "If only we had been more polite and respectful to the people who work for Dear Leader, maybe we'd be living under democracy."

 Yeah - I don't really disagree. I'm still trying to find my way on this.

I found this article pretty convincing.

https://splinternews.com/this-is-just-the-beginning-1827099100

And I just heard a commentator on CNN say words to the effect that "if we had stayed non-confrontational, we'd still be eating at separate lunch counters". Amen to that.

Maybe it's time to kick it up a notch.

BG9 said:

Klinker said:
The Times reports that Trump isn't too happy with SHS and has been openly discussing giving her the boot.  It remains to be seen whether the President will reach out to Baghdad Bob as a possible replacement.

What will make Trump happy considering her nose can't possibly fit any deeper into his a**?
Again, we are shown Trump loyalty is one way.

 Kim Kardashian?

I don't think there is much of anything to parse here:  you don't kick anyone out of your public establishment if they are complying with behavioral norms for such an establishment.

Please don't invoke "lunch counters" here.

Get out the vote is the proper response.

Woot said:
I am shocked that SHS goes out to eat and thinks people aren’t spitting in her food.  

I laughed way too hard at this. It’s very probable. 

shoshannah said:
This country faces a crisis for those of us who do not want to live under fascism. This is not a time to be "nice" to members of the regime who are actively dismantling the country and moving toward authoritarianism. The Red Hen performed an act of resistance. Every small act of resistance that puts sand in their gears, that calls them out, that demonstrates that Americans will not stand for fascism, is a good thing.

 We've been moving towards this for some time.  We have had militarism for decades.  We have been centralizing power in the presidency for quite a while as well.   

Obama had the chance to turn back the clock on some of this stuff but he gave into political expediency.  Thanks, in part to Obama and his predecessors, Trump can wage war as he wishes(and even have much of the left on his side), can effectively legislate quite a bit from the executive, monitor the people at a level never before seen in history, throw political opponents in jail without charging them, etc. 

To be honest, I share your concern.  I only fear that your solution is to take these very same powers  from Trump and hand them over to someone more to your liking. 

drummerboy said:

shoshannah said:

drummerboy said:
I'm not crazy about what's been happening here. I don't think Trump staffers deserve much respect, but these kinds of actions can backfire. Trumpers tend to be a bit fanatical , and after actions like what Maxine Waters did yesterday, I can see this stuff leading to violence at some point. 

And frankly, I think Trump is just itching for that to happen. He can't wait to be in charge of a violent mob.

 I do not think we should care one iota about what they think about our actions. We are fighting for the future of this country. We are fighting for OUR futures. If I owned a business, no way would I serve a member of a regime that is leading us toward fascism. 
Paraphrasing a tweet I read: Nobody living in an authoritarian regime ever said, "If only we had been more polite and respectful to the people who work for Dear Leader, maybe we'd be living under democracy."

 Yeah - I don't really disagree. I'm still trying to find my way on this.
I found this article pretty convincing.
https://splinternews.com/this-is-just-the-beginning-1827099100
And I just heard a commentator on CNN say words to the effect that "if we had stayed non-confrontational, we'd still be eating at separate lunch counters". Amen to that.
Maybe it's time to kick it up a notch.

 Weren't you the guy ripping Ron Paul for using the F word(you know which one!) a few short years ago?

I think there’s a bit of hysteria on this thread. 

If you really believe we are headed towards a true fascist/authoritarian regime, then by all means protest, harass, rise up, punch, push back, etc. Do what you have to do, no matter how ugly, to resist and out-Trump Trump. 

I do not think we are moving towards fascism/authoritarianism. I do think we have a jerky president who’s being overly muscular in certain areas and feeding on all the divisiveness. However our nation, people, and system of checks and balances are much bigger than one POTUS — he is in fact a temporary employee and he will be history in January 2021 or January 2025 at the latest. 

Just note that if we are just in the middle of a kinda sh*tty period right now but not moving towards fascism/authoritarianism, all-out resisting may have a cost in the form of upcoming elections, most notably the 2020 presidential election. There’s no way that going all Maxine Waters isn’t going to alienate some middle voters and fire up the GOP base more than it’s already fired up. 

terp said:

shoshannah said:
This country faces a crisis for those of us who do not want to live under fascism. This is not a time to be "nice" to members of the regime who are actively dismantling the country and moving toward authoritarianism. The Red Hen performed an act of resistance. Every small act of resistance that puts sand in their gears, that calls them out, that demonstrates that Americans will not stand for fascism, is a good thing.

 We've been moving towards this for some time.  We have had militarism for decades.  We have been centralizing power in the presidency for quite a while as well.   
Obama had the chance to turn back the clock on some of this stuff but he gave into political expediency.  Thanks, in part to Obama and his predecessors, Trump can wage war as he wishes(and even have much of the left on his side), can effectively legislate quite a bit from the executive, monitor the people at a level never before seen in history, throw political opponents in jail without charging them, etc. 
To be honest, I share your concern.  I only fear that your solution is to take these very same powers  from Trump and hand them over to someone more to your liking. 

What political opponents have been thrown in jail without being charged?

Smedley said:
I think there’s a bit of hysteria on this thread. 
If you really believe we are headed towards a true fascist/authoritarian regime, then by all means protest, harass, rise up, punch, push back, etc. Do what you have to do, no matter how ugly, to resist and out-Trump Trump. 
I do not think we are moving towards fascism/authoritarianism. I do think we have a jerky president who’s being overly muscular in certain areas and feeding on all the divisiveness. However our nation, people, and system of checks and balances are much bigger than one POTUS — he is in fact a temporary employee and he will be history in January 2021 or January 2025 at the latest. 
Just note that if we are just in the middle of a kinda sh*tty period right now but not moving towards fascism/authoritarianism, all-out resisting may have a cost in the form of upcoming elections, most notably the 2020 presidential election. There’s no way that going all Maxine Waters isn’t going to alienate some middle voters and fire up the GOP base more than it’s already fired up. 

 Perhaps.  We have been centralizing power(and Obama has been complicit) in the presidency since Teddy Roosevelt.   My thing is this, Trump violates the behavior norms of this office.  But, he hasn't taken steps to consolidate power in any way.  I think the Fascist/Nazi claims are hyperbolic.  However, I do have concerns about how we are centralizing power.   

I don't generally agree with the idea of businesses choosing their customers. I'd be supportive of the Red Hen refusing to cater an official WH function -- the idea of refusing to serve someone there as a private citizen, rather than on official business, I have a harder time supporting.

As far as centralization, maybe in a general sense there's some relationship between government centralization and freedom, but in the specific American context that doesn't seem to hold. A bunch of states went to war against centralized government in order to perpetuate literal slavery, after all (and a hundred years later, replayed this in a minor key to perpetuate legalized white supremacy).

What I've found most striking, and frightening, about the Trump era isn't questions around centralization of power, but around cruelty. Malice toward people outside of his white supremacist base (yes, white supremacy -- I see no reason to mince words here) seems to be the central theme. Kidnapping children as a matter of policy is a breathtakingly audacious act of calculated cruelty, and only the most recent example. It's both a real victory, and a sad comment on where things are, that he's been force to retreat to now simply keeping children as hostages -- current reports are that the policy is to re-unite children with their parents only if the parents agree to drop their pursuit of asylum claims.

I agree that the Fascist/Nazi claims are hyperbolic. No need to call out foreign tyrants, when we have our very own Jefferson Davises and George Wallaces as reference.

I loved this entire Michelle Goldberg op-ed, but especially this passage:

“Liberals are using their cultural power against the right because it’s the only power they have left, and people have a desperate need to say, and to hear others say, that what is happening in this country is intolerable.” https://www.

nytimes.com/2018/06/25/opinion/trump-sarah-huckabee-sanders-restaurant-civility.html …

shoshannah said:
 I do not think we should care one iota about what they think about our actions. We are fighting for the future of this country. We are fighting for OUR futures. If I owned a business, no way would I serve a member of a regime that is leading us toward fascism. 

This.  

PVW said:

As far as centralization, maybe in a general sense there's some relationship between government centralization and freedom, but in the specific American context that doesn't seem to hold. A bunch of states went to war against centralized government in order to perpetuate literal slavery, after all (and a hundred years later, replayed this in a minor key to perpetuate legalized white supremacy).

 Not to get too personal, but did you feel the need to shower after typing that nonsense?

Hell of a week, I tell ya.

ElizMcCord said:

Woot said:
I am shocked that SHS goes out to eat and thinks people aren’t spitting in her food.  

I laughed way too hard at this. It’s very probable. 

 Probably worse than spit, but I'm not going to interrupt her meal if I were the owner.

terp said:

drummerboy said:

shoshannah said:

drummerboy said:
I'm not crazy about what's been happening here. I don't think Trump staffers deserve much respect, but these kinds of actions can backfire. Trumpers tend to be a bit fanatical , and after actions like what Maxine Waters did yesterday, I can see this stuff leading to violence at some point. 

And frankly, I think Trump is just itching for that to happen. He can't wait to be in charge of a violent mob.

 I do not think we should care one iota about what they think about our actions. We are fighting for the future of this country. We are fighting for OUR futures. If I owned a business, no way would I serve a member of a regime that is leading us toward fascism. 
Paraphrasing a tweet I read: Nobody living in an authoritarian regime ever said, "If only we had been more polite and respectful to the people who work for Dear Leader, maybe we'd be living under democracy."

 Yeah - I don't really disagree. I'm still trying to find my way on this.
I found this article pretty convincing.
https://splinternews.com/this-is-just-the-beginning-1827099100
And I just heard a commentator on CNN say words to the effect that "if we had stayed non-confrontational, we'd still be eating at separate lunch counters". Amen to that.
Maybe it's time to kick it up a notch.

 Weren't you the guy ripping Ron Paul for using the F word(you know which one!) a few short years ago?

 Don't know what you're talking about.

Smedley said:
I think there’s a bit of hysteria on this thread. 
If you really believe we are headed towards a true fascist/authoritarian regime, then by all means protest, harass, rise up, punch, push back, etc. Do what you have to do, no matter how ugly, to resist and out-Trump Trump. 
I do not think we are moving towards fascism/authoritarianism. I do think we have a jerky president who’s being overly muscular in certain areas and feeding on all the divisiveness. However our nation, people, and system of checks and balances are much bigger than one POTUS — he is in fact a temporary employee and he will be history in January 2021 or January 2025 at the latest. 
Just note that if we are just in the middle of a kinda sh*tty period right now but not moving towards fascism/authoritarianism, all-out resisting may have a cost in the form of upcoming elections, most notably the 2020 presidential election. There’s no way that going all Maxine Waters isn’t going to alienate some middle voters and fire up the GOP base more than it’s already fired up. 

We're  either

1. moving towards authoritarianism

2. moving away from it

3. or staying at the status quo.

Do you honestly believe that number 1 is not our current condition?

Perhaps you don't understand the meaning of the word.

Stoughton said:
I loved this entire Michelle Goldberg op-ed, but especially this passage:
“Liberals are using their cultural power against the right because it’s the only power they have left, and people have a desperate need to say, and to hear others say, that what is happening in this country is intolerable.” https://www.

nytimes.com/2018/06/25/opinion/trump-sarah-huckabee-sanders-restaurant-civility.html …

 I thought this was a good piece too.

jamie said:
https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/d-c-establishments-could-get-in-serious-trouble-if-they-discriminate-against-trump-admin-staff/
(Not sure why the link wasn't created above)

 I don't think "lying xenophbe" is considered a political affiliation. 

As I wrote earlier, it's disingenuous to suggest that Sanders or Nielsen or Miller are facing these kinds of protests because they're Republicans. It's because of what they're doing. 

terp said:

PVW said:

As far as centralization, maybe in a general sense there's some relationship between government centralization and freedom, but in the specific American context that doesn't seem to hold. A bunch of states went to war against centralized government in order to perpetuate literal slavery, after all (and a hundred years later, replayed this in a minor key to perpetuate legalized white supremacy).

 Not to get too personal, but did you feel the need to shower after typing that nonsense?

 Do you have a specific objection, or are you just mad because I disagree with you?

PVW said:
 Do you have a specific objection, or are you just mad because I disagree with you?

 I'm not mad at all.  It's just a really smarmy point.   Centralization must be good because states seceded in the south.  But, for the generations prior was it decentralized powers that established and perpetuated the Atlantic Slave trade or what is the French and British Empires?   Was it decentralization when northern states fought against the Fugitive Slave Act?  

Smedley said:

On the other hand, it’s messed up that this happened and it’s reflective of the hyper-polarized times. I think it’s kind of scary and I also think it’s only a matter of time before somebody is killed. (I would have said “hurt or killed” but hurt already happened with Steve Scalise.) 

Yes, things are polarized. There are those that support and defend a president that calls the press "the enemy of the people," and those that oppose him.

BTW, people have already been killed for their political beliefs. 

drummerboy said:

Smedley said:
I think there’s a bit of hysteria on this thread. 
If you really believe we are headed towards a true fascist/authoritarian regime, then by all means protest, harass, rise up, punch, push back, etc. Do what you have to do, no matter how ugly, to resist and out-Trump Trump. 
I do not think we are moving towards fascism/authoritarianism. I do think we have a jerky president who’s being overly muscular in certain areas and feeding on all the divisiveness. However our nation, people, and system of checks and balances are much bigger than one POTUS — he is in fact a temporary employee and he will be history in January 2021 or January 2025 at the latest. 
Just note that if we are just in the middle of a kinda sh*tty period right now but not moving towards fascism/authoritarianism, all-out resisting may have a cost in the form of upcoming elections, most notably the 2020 presidential election. There’s no way that going all Maxine Waters isn’t going to alienate some middle voters and fire up the GOP base more than it’s already fired up. 

We're  either

1. moving towards authoritarianism
2. moving away from it
3. or staying at the status quo.
Do you honestly believe that number 1 is not our current condition?



Perhaps you don't understand the meaning of the word.

 Yes you are correct, I just had to look it up. Thanks for pointing that out, as before this I was just posting stuff based on some ballpark guess of what I thought the word may have meant. 

As far as your question, yes I do agree the executive branch has gained more power over the years, and we have a President who has indicated, mostly through various stupid tweets, that he'd like even more power. But he's not gonna get it. 

So, literally, #1 is our current condition, which is the same as it was under Obama and Bush.

But practically, my answer is #3, as I believe there is no real risk of the U.S. becoming an authoritarian state, at least in my lifetime, barring some unforeseen shock. Of course anything is possible, but I don't believe that we are moving towards authoritarianism. 

In fact, I look forward to the free and fair elections that will be held in Nov. and in 2020 as the means to express my views on our leaders. Free and fair elections don't happen in authoritarian states, so if you think we are moving towards authoritarianism, you must think these elections are at risk. In that case it does make sense for you to do what you have to do now to push back on our government.     

Smedley I think you need to do some further research into voter suppression efforts by Republican state legislatures over the last several years. Then decide if our elections are truly free and fair.

I am aware of voter suppression efforts. Our system isn't perfect but on balance I believe our elections are free and fair. 

Do you believe U.S. elections are not free and fair?

Smedley said:
I think there’s a bit of hysteria on this thread. 
If you really believe we are headed towards a true fascist/authoritarian regime, then by all means protest, harass, rise up, punch, push back, etc. Do what you have to do, no matter how ugly, to resist and out-Trump Trump. 
I do not think we are moving towards fascism/authoritarianism. I do think we have a jerky president who’s being overly muscular in certain areas and feeding on all the divisiveness. However our nation, people, and system of checks and balances are much bigger than one POTUS — he is in fact a temporary employee and he will be history in January 2021 or January 2025 at the latest. 

 Did you miss his statement that we should do away with due process at the border?

Smedley said:

In fact, I look forward to the free and fair elections that will be held in Nov. and in 2020 as the means to express my views on our leaders. Free and fair elections don't happen in authoritarian states, so if you think we are moving towards authoritarianism, you must think these elections are at risk. In that case it does make sense for you to do what you have to do now to push back on our government.     

 Did you miss all the measures for voter suppression being adopted by Republican Governors and Legislatures?

Yesterday in a 5-4 decision the Supreme Court overruled a lower court finding that Legislative Districts were gerrymandered by the Texas Legislature in order to reduce the power of Black and Latino voters. 

"Eternal vigilance is the price  of Liberty"

between voter suppression and gereymandering, no our elections are not free and fair compared to the rest of the developed world. 

From the Dissent by Justice Sotomayor

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/17pdf/17-586_o7kq.pdf

SOTOMAYOR, J., dissenting
SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES
Nos. 17–586 and 17–626
GREG ABBOTT, GOVERNOR OF TEXAS, ET AL.,
APPELLANTS
17–586 v.
SHANNON PEREZ, ET AL.

[June 25, 2018]
JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR, with whom JUSTICE GINSBURG,
JUSTICE BREYER, and JUSTICE KAGAN join, dissenting.

The Court today goes out of its way to permit the State
of Texas to use maps that the three-judge District Court
unanimously found were adopted for the purpose of preserving
the racial discrimination that tainted its previous
maps. In reaching its desired result, the majority commits
three fundamental errors along the way.
First, the majority disregards the strict limits of our
appellate jurisdiction and reads into the District Court
orders a nonexistent injunction to justify its premature
intervention. Second, the majority indulges Texas’ distorted
reading of the District Court’s meticulous orders,
mistakenly faulting the court for supposedly shifting the
burden of proof to the State to show that it cured the taint
of past discrimination, all the while ignoring the clear
language and unambiguous factual findings of the orders
below. Third, the majority elides the standard of review
that guides our resolution of the factual disputes in these
appeals—indeed, mentioning it only in passing—and
selectively parses through the facts. As a result of these
errors, Texas is guaranteed continued use of much of its
discriminatory maps.
This disregard of both precedent and fact comes at
serious costs to our democracy. It means that, after years
of litigation and undeniable proof of intentional discrimination,
minority voters in Texas—despite constituting a
majority of the population within the State—will continue
to be underrepresented in the political process. Those
voters must return to the polls in 2018 and 2020 with the
knowledge that their ability to exercise meaningfully their
right to vote has been burdened by the manipulation of
district lines specifically designed to target their communities
and minimize their political will. The fundamental
right to vote is too precious to be disregarded in this manner.
I dissent.