Smedley said:

And I don't know what the answer is. It's been lather/rinse/repeat over there for my entire lifetime and it probably will be until I check out.  

Eliminating Hamas, although not THE answer, would go a long way toward  helping the people in Gaza. It was Hamas that caused the blockade. It is Hamas that wants to eliminate Israel and all of the Jews in Israel.

cramer said:

Smedley said:

And I don't know what the answer is. It's been lather/rinse/repeat over there for my entire lifetime and it probably will be until I check out.  

Eliminating Hamas, although not THE answer, would go a long way toward  helping the people in Gaza. It was Hamas that caused the blockade. It is Hamas that wants to eliminate Israel and all of the Jews in Israel, and not just Israel. 

In theory, yes, but practically that's not possible.

58% of Palestinians in Gaza support Hamas, and "younger Palestinians and Gaza residents displayed stronger support."

https://coopwb.in/info/how-many-palestinians-support-hamas/#:~:text=Israeli%2DPalestinian%20relations.-,Survey%20on%20Palestinian%20Support%20for%20Hamas,the%20West%20Bank%20favor%20Hamas.

So Israel can try to eliminate Hamas by taking out their leaders and their militants/terrorists and their weaponry. That would weaken Hamas and take them out of the game for a while, but Hamas will come back. 

Smedley said:

cramer said:

Smedley said:

And I don't know what the answer is. It's been lather/rinse/repeat over there for my entire lifetime and it probably will be until I check out.  

Eliminating Hamas, although not THE answer, would go a long way toward  helping the people in Gaza. It was Hamas that caused the blockade. It is Hamas that wants to eliminate Israel and all of the Jews in Israel, and not just Israel. 

In theory, yes, but practically that's not possible.

58% of Palestinians in Gaza support Hamas, and "younger Palestinians and Gaza residents displayed stronger support."

https://coopwb.in/info/how-many-palestinians-support-hamas/#:~:text=Israeli%2DPalestinian%20relations.-,Survey%20on%20Palestinian%20Support%20for%20Hamas,the%20West%20Bank%20favor%20Hamas.

So Israel can try to eliminate Hamas by taking out their leaders and their militants/terrorists and their weaponry. That would weaken Hamas and take them out of the game for a while, but Hamas will come back. 

Sadly, the only way to truly eliminate Hamas from Gaza would be to kill all the people in Gaza, salt the earth, and cement the tunnels.  

Taking out the leaders has to be tried. The IDF has said that is a priority. 

cramer said:

Smedley said:

cramer said:

Smedley said:

And I don't know what the answer is. It's been lather/rinse/repeat over there for my entire lifetime and it probably will be until I check out.  

Eliminating Hamas, although not THE answer, would go a long way toward  helping the people in Gaza. It was Hamas that caused the blockade. It is Hamas that wants to eliminate Israel and all of the Jews in Israel, and not just Israel. 

In theory, yes, but practically that's not possible.

58% of Palestinians in Gaza support Hamas, and "younger Palestinians and Gaza residents displayed stronger support."

https://coopwb.in/info/how-many-palestinians-support-hamas/#:~:text=Israeli%2DPalestinian%20relations.-,Survey%20on%20Palestinian%20Support%20for%20Hamas,the%20West%20Bank%20favor%20Hamas.

So Israel can try to eliminate Hamas by taking out their leaders and their militants/terrorists and their weaponry. That would weaken Hamas and take them out of the game for a while, but Hamas will come back. 

Sadly, the only way to truly eliminate Hamas from Gaza would be to kill all the people in Gaza, salt the earth, and cement the tunnels.  

Taking out the leaders has to be tried. The IDF has said that is a priority. 

Israel kills two senior Hamas officials in targeted airstrikes in Gaza

https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-767582

cramer said:

cramer said:

Smedley said:

cramer said:

Smedley said:

And I don't know what the answer is. It's been lather/rinse/repeat over there for my entire lifetime and it probably will be until I check out.  

Eliminating Hamas, although not THE answer, would go a long way toward  helping the people in Gaza. It was Hamas that caused the blockade. It is Hamas that wants to eliminate Israel and all of the Jews in Israel, and not just Israel. 

In theory, yes, but practically that's not possible.

58% of Palestinians in Gaza support Hamas, and "younger Palestinians and Gaza residents displayed stronger support."

https://coopwb.in/info/how-many-palestinians-support-hamas/#:~:text=Israeli%2DPalestinian%20relations.-,Survey%20on%20Palestinian%20Support%20for%20Hamas,the%20West%20Bank%20favor%20Hamas.

So Israel can try to eliminate Hamas by taking out their leaders and their militants/terrorists and their weaponry. That would weaken Hamas and take them out of the game for a while, but Hamas will come back. 

Sadly, the only way to truly eliminate Hamas from Gaza would be to kill all the people in Gaza, salt the earth, and cement the tunnels.  

Taking out the leaders has to be tried. The IDF has said that is a priority. 

Israel kills two senior Hamas officials in targeted airstrikes in Gaza

https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-767582

Do you think leaders are irreplaceable? 

drummerboy said:

cramer said:

cramer said:

Smedley said:

cramer said:

Smedley said:

And I don't know what the answer is. It's been lather/rinse/repeat over there for my entire lifetime and it probably will be until I check out.  

Eliminating Hamas, although not THE answer, would go a long way toward  helping the people in Gaza. It was Hamas that caused the blockade. It is Hamas that wants to eliminate Israel and all of the Jews in Israel, and not just Israel. 

In theory, yes, but practically that's not possible.

58% of Palestinians in Gaza support Hamas, and "younger Palestinians and Gaza residents displayed stronger support."

https://coopwb.in/info/how-many-palestinians-support-hamas/#:~:text=Israeli%2DPalestinian%20relations.-,Survey%20on%20Palestinian%20Support%20for%20Hamas,the%20West%20Bank%20favor%20Hamas.

So Israel can try to eliminate Hamas by taking out their leaders and their militants/terrorists and their weaponry. That would weaken Hamas and take them out of the game for a while, but Hamas will come back. 

Sadly, the only way to truly eliminate Hamas from Gaza would be to kill all the people in Gaza, salt the earth, and cement the tunnels.  

Taking out the leaders has to be tried. The IDF has said that is a priority. 

Israel kills two senior Hamas officials in targeted airstrikes in Gaza

https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-767582

Do you think leaders are irreplaceable? 

We'll see. 

cramer said:

Smedley said:

cramer said:

Smedley said:

And I don't know what the answer is. It's been lather/rinse/repeat over there for my entire lifetime and it probably will be until I check out.  

Eliminating Hamas, although not THE answer, would go a long way toward  helping the people in Gaza. It was Hamas that caused the blockade. It is Hamas that wants to eliminate Israel and all of the Jews in Israel, and not just Israel. 

In theory, yes, but practically that's not possible.

58% of Palestinians in Gaza support Hamas, and "younger Palestinians and Gaza residents displayed stronger support."

https://coopwb.in/info/how-many-palestinians-support-hamas/#:~:text=Israeli%2DPalestinian%20relations.-,Survey%20on%20Palestinian%20Support%20for%20Hamas,the%20West%20Bank%20favor%20Hamas.

So Israel can try to eliminate Hamas by taking out their leaders and their militants/terrorists and their weaponry. That would weaken Hamas and take them out of the game for a while, but Hamas will come back. 

Sadly, the only way to truly eliminate Hamas from Gaza would be to kill all the people in Gaza, salt the earth, and cement the tunnels.  

Taking out the leaders has to be tried. The IDF has said that is a priority. 

I agree. Israel has to hit hard.

But at the same time, If I’m some 15 yo kid in Gaza watching all this, I’m gonna be ready to join an uprising and shoot up some Israeli civilians whenever I get the chance, whether that’s next week or next year or 5 years from now.

Lather rinse repeat. 

Another 50 years of war, that's all we will see.

Conversation from yesterday with Daniel Levy, formerly with Ehud Barak's government:

https://www.npr.org/2023/10/09/1204612052/israel-even-with-superior-intelligence-abilities-fails-to-anticipate-hamas-attac

Takeaway:  "Israelis will not have normality and security until Palestinians do."

How on earth they will manage to get there from here, who knows.  But I think he's right.  When Gaza has been "pacified" by whatever means Netanyahu chooses, he (unlikely?) or a successor needs to put real effort into detente/resolution to have some kind of peace with their nearest neighbors.  Of course there has to be a reasonable counterpart on the Palestinian side too.  Horrible for all, seems worse and worse.

some perspective (yes, 2023 numbers are out of date)

mjc said:

Conversation from yesterday with Daniel Levy, formerly with Ehud Barak's government:

https://www.npr.org/2023/10/09/1204612052/israel-even-with-superior-intelligence-abilities-fails-to-anticipate-hamas-attac

Takeaway:  "Israelis will not have normality and security until Palestinians do."

How on earth they will manage to get there from here, who knows.  But I think he's right.  When Gaza has been "pacified" by whatever means Netanyahu chooses, he (unlikely?) or a successor needs to put real effort into detente/resolution to have some kind of peace with their nearest neighbors.  Of course there has to be a reasonable counterpart on the Palestinian side too.  Horrible for all, seems worse and worse.

Unfortunately, it only takes a few extremists to derail the peace process.

tjohn said:

mjc said:

Conversation from yesterday with Daniel Levy, formerly with Ehud Barak's government:

https://www.npr.org/2023/10/09/1204612052/israel-even-with-superior-intelligence-abilities-fails-to-anticipate-hamas-attac

Takeaway:  "Israelis will not have normality and security until Palestinians do."

How on earth they will manage to get there from here, who knows.  But I think he's right.  When Gaza has been "pacified" by whatever means Netanyahu chooses, he (unlikely?) or a successor needs to put real effort into detente/resolution to have some kind of peace with their nearest neighbors.  Of course there has to be a reasonable counterpart on the Palestinian side too.  Horrible for all, seems worse and worse.

Unfortunately, it only takes a few extremists to derail the peace process.

I have no love for Netanyahu. I've been angry with him since the murder of Rabin. 

It's possible he may be kicked out of office after this whole affair winds down. 

cramer said:

I have no love for Netanyahu. I've been angry with him since the murder of Rabin. 

It's possible he may be kicked out of office after this whole affair winds down. 

It's possible he may exploit this whole affair to help himself survive.

The Israelis I know who see this as weakening Netanyahu were never supporters of his, so I don't know how much of that is wishcasting. Sure, you'd think being caught so unprepared for such an attack would not be to his benefit, but I also remember Pres. Bush reading My Pet Goat.

Biden this afternoon -

Remarks by President Biden on the Terrorist Attacks in Israel | The White House

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You know, there are moments in this life — and I mean this literally — when the pure, unadulterated evil is unleashed on this world.

The people of Israel lived through one such moment this weekend. The bloody hands of the terrorist organization Hamas — a group whose stated purpose for being is to kill Jews.

This was an act of sheer evil. ...

So, in this moment, we must be crystal clear: We stand with Israel. We stand with Israel. And we will make sure Israel has what it needs to take care of its citizens, defend itself, and respond to this attack.

There is no justification for terrorism. There is no excuse.

Hamas does not stand for the Palestinian people’s right to dignity and self-determination. Its stated purpose is the annihilation of the State of Israel and the murder of Jewish people.

They use Palestinian civilians as human shields. ...

Let’s be real clear: There is no place for hate in America — not against Jews, not against Muslims, not against anybody. We reject — we reject — what we reject is terrorism. We condemn the indiscriminate evil, just as we’ve always done.

That’s what America stands for.

"Hamas does not stand for the Palestinian people’s right to dignity and self-determination. Its stated purpose is the annihilation of the State of Israel and the murder of Jewish people."

The death toll in Israel has risen to 1200. I saw the number of military killed this morning. I don't recall the exact number but it was very small. This was pure savagery. The only purpose was to kill Jews. 

Beheading women, children, babies. I don't understand how anyone, regardless of how they feel they've been treated, can do this. It's sheer evil. Hamas has to be stopped. 

Times of Israel:

For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces

"For years, the various governments led by Benjamin Netanyahu took an approach that divided power between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank — bringing Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas to his knees while making moves that propped up the Hamas terror group.

"The idea was to prevent Abbas — or anyone else in the Palestinian Authority’s West Bank government — from advancing toward the establishment of a Palestinian state.

"Thus, amid this bid to impair Abbas, Hamas was upgraded from a mere terror group to an organization with which Israel held indirect negotiations via Egypt, and one that was allowed to receive infusions of cash from abroad."

Deleted.

never mind

drummerboy said:

10 to 1 this story is b.s.

The story of babies being found beheaded? It has been discussed in interviews. There are several respected war correspondents on the ground. I've been bouncing between 3 stations for days.

We've heard of atrocities in Ukraine committed by the Russians and It appeared that all on this board accepted it.

We’re being messaged by the highest Australian Jewish associations that very shortly there will be a social media blitz, as Cramer said upthread, of the torture and murder of hostages specifically for psychological warfare. Hamas wants people to react and spread these images and videos. 
We’re being asked to follow the advice of the Israeli government, and NOT look at these posts nor forward them.
Possibly report the poster, however some platforms won’t do anything about this content. Prevent children from seeing it; instead, consider having a conversation about using others as objects for exploitation and humiliation just to get likes, visibility or break your competitors’ spirits.

Smedley said:

This Hamas attack was/is pretty evil and the only response to the attack is to bomb and invade I'm afraid. 

But bigger-picture it's a lot more complicated than the shorthand MSM narrative of Hamas evil, Israel virtuous.

If I was a 20-something unemployed Palestinian in Gaza, living in poverty with little/no hope for the future, and my daily life is a series of humiliations at the hands of (who they see as) brutal, unlawful occupiers, yeah I'd probably have some pretty massive rage built up too. And being that there's no chance of ever fighting the Israelis on a level playing field, ie joining the army and fighting them with tanks and missiles and proper equipment, the only option is to find some opportunity, any opportunity, to fight dirty and subhuman, like they did in this attack.

I'm not excusing it at all. But I can understand where it comes from. I don't think the Hamas fighters who murdered innocent civilians were born evil. But they were made evil.  

And I don't know what the answer is. It's been lather/rinse/repeat over there for my entire lifetime and it probably will be until I check out.  

Most people have excused or tried to empathize with victims of oppression. It is the making of a revolution. History has acquainted us with hidden bombs, snipers, and the like. And I assume that is the rationale of pointing to the lack of options of poor desperate young men. But don't you agree that some actions that occur in revolution or war stand out historically. We are all careful to not use certain events, such as the Holocaust, as a means of comparison. That illustrates that most consider the evil that occurred under Hitler to be beyond comparison. 

My point is that the cruelty being carried out by these terrorists is beyond the behavior of a suicide bomber, or a sniper. It is targeting some of the most vulnerable, It is personal, one on one, videotaped with what appears to be sadistic pleasure.

As for whether they were made evil or were born evil, that is a philosophical question. But I think most will agree that not everyone who experiences poverty and hopelessness commits the kind of depraved acts that we are seeing.

Human Rights Watch:

https://www.hrw.org/the-day-in-human-rights/2023/10/09

On the Escalation in Israel-Palestine

Their atrocities do not justify your atrocities. The brutality of their war crimes does not lessen the brutality of your war crimes. Their inhumanity drives your inhumanity which drives their inhumanity further, on and on until the world around you burns to the ground and beyond.

The civilian toll from fighting in Israel-Palestine on the weekend has been devastating, even by the appalling standards of the decades-long conflict.

This latest round of extreme violence began on Saturday, when Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups breached the fences separating Gaza and Israel. They attacked nearby Israeli communities, infiltrated homes, apparently shot civilians en masse, and took scores of Israeli civilians as hostages into Gaza.

They also reportedly launched more than 3,000 indiscriminate rockets towards Israeli population centers.

By Sunday, attacks by Palestinian armed groups had killed more than 677 Israelis and foreign nationals, including civilians, according to Israeli sources cited by the United Nations. Subsequent Israeli airstrikes on Gaza left at least 413 Palestinians dead, the Palestinian Health Ministry in Gaza reported.

Mass violence is continuing as I write, and the civilian death toll keeps rising.

Of course, everyone realizes this conflict did not start at the weekend, however unprecedented the current levels of violence.

Israeli authorities have systematically repressed Palestinians for decades and since 2007 have imposed a crushing closure on Gaza’s population. Gaza – a 40-by-11 kilometer (25-by-7 mile) strip of land – has essentially been an open-air prison for more than 16 years.

What’s more, Palestinians in the Occupied Palestinian Territory have recently faced perhaps unprecedented repression. During the first nine months of 2023, Israeli authorities killed more Palestinians in the West Bank in 2023 than in any year since such UN records began in 2005.

As of October, the number of Palestinians being held in Israeli administrative detention without charges or trial based on secret information reached a 30-year-high.

The Israeli government’s systematic oppression in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, coupled with inhumane acts committed against Palestinians as part of a policy to maintain the domination by Jewish Israelis over Palestinians, amount to the crimes against humanity of apartheid and persecution.

However, does this years-long, inhuman repression justify brutal attacks by Palestinian armed groups? No. Never. It may be part of the background, but it is not an excuse.

The deliberate targeting of civilians by Palestinian armed groups, their indiscriminate attacks, and their taking of civilians as hostages amount to war crimes under international humanitarian law.

On Saturday, Israel’s energy minister announced Israeli authorities would no longer provide electricity to Gaza’s 2.2 million residents. This and other punitive measures against Gaza’s civilian population would amount to unlawful collective punishment, which is also a war crime.

I know partisans in this conflict will accuse me of “bothsidesism” here, but this is the way international law is supposed to work. The laws of war apply to all sides in a conflict.

The real problem – the reason this conflict goes on and on – is that those laws are not applied in reality. It’s the same with standards of international law in general, including respect for fundamental human rights. People keep committing serious crimes on all sides, and perpetrators keep getting away with it.

During prior rounds of hostilities, Human Rights Watch documented serious violations of the laws of war by Israeli forces and by Palestinian armed groups.

Israel has repeatedly carried out indiscriminate airstrikes in past conflicts in Gaza that killed scores of civilians – wiping out entire families – and strikes that targeted civilians or civilian infrastructure, including destroying high-rise Gaza towers full of homes and businesses, with no evident military targets in the vicinity.

Palestinian armed groups have launched thousands of indiscriminate rockets that violate the laws of war and amount to war crimes. Human Rights Watch has for years called for Palestinian armed groups to cease these unlawful attacks, including in a recent exchange of letters with Hamas authorities.

It’s hard to see how the cycles of violence in Israel-Palestine – brutality repaid with brutality, again and again – will ever end without justice for crimes like these.

In 2021, the prosecutor of International Criminal Court (ICC) opened a formal investigation into serious crimes committed in Palestine, which is a member of the ICC. The current fighting highlights the urgent need for the prosecutor to accelerate their investigation into serious crimes by all sides.

The sooner governments around the world understand that justice is essential to peace and the sooner they make justice their top priority for the region, the sooner there might be some hope these horrors will end.

https://newrepublic.com/post/176090/state-department-blinken-delete-tweets-ceasefire-israel-gaza-palestine

Why Are Biden Officials Deleting Tweets Calling for Israeli Restraint?

The State Department has mysteriously deleted its tweets on the conflict, more than once.

AMIR LEVY/GETTY IMAGES

The Biden administration has sparked backlash for posting and then deleting tweets that called for a ceasefire between Israel and Palestine.

Fighting broke out on Saturday when Hamas launched a surprise airstrike attack on Israel, killing about 900 people. Israel has since responded in kind, imposing a total siege on the Gaza Strip, cutting off food, water, and electricity. More than 680 Palestinians have been killed in the counteroffensive—and the death toll on both sides is expected to quickly rise.

On Saturday, before the conflict really escalated, Secretary of State Antony Blinken met with Turkish Foreign Minister Hakan Fidan to discuss a solution. Blinken then shared a statement on X, formerly Twitter, saying he “encouraged Turkey’s advocacy for a ceasefire and the release of all hostages by Hamas immediately.”

He quickly deleted the post and replaced it with a statement that said only, “Israel has the right to defend itself, rescue any hostages, and protect its citizens.”

Blinken’s fast 180 was the second time the State Department backtracked on a statement calling for Israeli restraint.

Hours after the initial attack, the State Department’s Office of Palestinian Affairs said on X that it “unequivocally condemned the attack of Hamas terrorists and the loss of life that has incurred. We urge all sides to refrain from violence and retaliatory attacks. Terror and violence solve nothing.”

The office soon deleted the post and shared a statement saying only that it “unequivocally” condemned the attack.

Hamas said Monday that it would be open to discussing a truce or “something of that sort” with Israeli officials. The group said it had “achieved its targets.”

The State Department flip-flopping on a ceasefire is confusing at best. The agency’s entire job is to promote diplomacy, so surely its ultimate goal should be an end to all fighting. Instead, it is letting right-wing backlash determine its next moves.

For those who are up, Ehud Barak is up next on CNBC. 

Posted at 7:13 am.

If anyone wants to know what Paul said without reading it, I'll sum it up for you.  Killing on both sides are bad, but it's all Israel's fault.

Morganna said:

drummerboy said:

10 to 1 this story is b.s.

The story of babies being found beheaded? It has been discussed in interviews. There are several respected war correspondents on the ground. I've been bouncing between 3 stations for days.

We've heard of atrocities in Ukraine committed by the Russians and It appeared that all on this board accepted it.

From what I've seen there is no proof of this allegation. Discussions are not proof.

As for allegations against Russia - the ones I believe have pretty extensive reporting behind them. All this has is a claim by the IDF.