Hamas and Israel
After 9/11 the USA was accused of war crimes when we went after Al Qaeda in Afghanistan… could anyone at the time tell us we were wrong to go after bin Laden and the Taliban? We were enraged right?
Jaytee said:
After 9/11 the USA was accused of war crimes when we went after Al Qaeda in Afghanistan… could anyone at the time tell us we were wrong to go after bin Laden and the Taliban? We were enraged right?
Whether we were right or wrong is irrelevant with respect to the Israel-Hamas fighting.
I would say the biggest problem with invading Afghanistan is that nobody really understood how the war was going to end. That seems to be a mistake nations often make when going to war.
It’s the same scenario… they attacked… we retaliated… who could have told us what to do?
Jaytee said:
It’s the same scenario… they attacked… we retaliated… who could have told us what to do?
Israel is a sovereign state and no one can force them to follow international law but, if they want to slaughter tens of thousands of civilians, we are under no compulsion to give them the munitions to do so.
From a practical point of view, the situation of a super power is substantively different from that of a client state.
drummerboy said:
tjohn said:
There certainly is an element of terror in Israel's response. Presumably, they want to inflict enough punishment that Hamas or Hezbollah will think twice before attacking Israel again. I'm not convinced this strategy will pay off.
Has a country ever attacked someone with this intent? I'm no historian, but I'm thinking no.
Important to recall that at the very beginning Israel's defense minister declared a total blockade of food, water, fuel and electricity on the entire population of Gaza. It would be interesting to find historical precedents.
The US/Israel war on Gaza that began after a military disaster appears to be turning into another military disaster as well as a humanitarian disaster. For those who don't know, Indyk is a former US ambassador to Israel.
Today is a turning point in Israel when leading journalists (Barnea, Bergman, Caspit etc.) tell the Israeli public what @netanyahu will not tell them: that Hamas is bruised but will not be defeated and the best that can be done now is to negotiate a return of the hostages at a…
— Martin Indyk (@Martin_Indyk) December 22, 2023
paulsurovell said:
Important to recall that at the very beginning Israel's defense minister declared a total blockade of food, water, fuel and electricity on the entire population of Gaza. It would be interesting to find historical precedents.
Maybe someone else can call up a more recent example but, in the last 100 years, the most obvious examples of this sort of warfare would be the Siege of Leningrad and the Warsaw Ghetto uprising in the 1940s. In the 1990s, there was the Siege of Sarajevo during the Bosnian Genocide but the number of civilians casualties was far lower and I think the encirclement was more porous.
paulsurovell said:
drummerboy said:
tjohn said:
There certainly is an element of terror in Israel's response. Presumably, they want to inflict enough punishment that Hamas or Hezbollah will think twice before attacking Israel again. I'm not convinced this strategy will pay off.
Has a country ever attacked someone with this intent? I'm no historian, but I'm thinking no.
Important to recall that at the very beginning Israel's defense minister declared a total blockade of food, water, fuel and electricity on the entire population of Gaza. It would be interesting to find historical precedents.
What was done to Germany in two world wars and Japan in the second. The South in the Civil War. That’s how wars are fought.
Sometimes the cost in public relations is consequential. That is Israel’s problem.
tjohn said:
What was done to Germany in two world wars and Japan in the second. The South in the Civil War. That’s how wars are fought.
Paul can't say "Holodomor".
Netanyahu update:
Joe Lockhart was Bill Clinton's press secretary in the late 1990s during some of Benjamin Netanyahu's first term as Israeli prime minister. He called Netanyahu "one of the single most obnoxious individuals you're going to come into — just a liar and a cheat." pic.twitter.com/kfH4Q3D5EG
— ☀️ Jon Schwarz ☀️ (@schwarz) December 23, 2023
tjohn said:
paulsurovell said:
drummerboy said:
tjohn said:
There certainly is an element of terror in Israel's response. Presumably, they want to inflict enough punishment that Hamas or Hezbollah will think twice before attacking Israel again. I'm not convinced this strategy will pay off.
Has a country ever attacked someone with this intent? I'm no historian, but I'm thinking no.
Important to recall that at the very beginning Israel's defense minister declared a total blockade of food, water, fuel and electricity on the entire population of Gaza. It would be interesting to find historical precedents.
What was done to Germany in two world wars and Japan in the second. The South in the Civil War. That’s how wars are fought.
Sometimes the cost in public relations is consequential. That is Israel’s problem.
There were exceptions in World War II for neutral countries. Israel's blockade had no exceptions, not even the UN or humanitarian organizations:
Each of the countries which remained neutral after June 1940 was able to assuage the belligerents’ political intransigence and maintain friendly relations by exporting various material goods to each of the belligerent groups: from Sweden, iron ore and ball-bearings; from Switzerland, watches, metal goods, and machinery; from Spain, food, iron ore, and wolfram; from Portugal, leather hides and wolfram (Golson 2011).
paulsurovell said:
I guess Biden can't say it either, when it comes to Israel.
Thanks, Captain Whatabout.
Nothing says "Happy Holidays" like a Christmas offensive.
Israel Says It Is Intensifying Its Campaign
I am sure all of Israel's supporters in the Bible Belt are cheering. A bad break for the Palestinian Christians though.
This may have been proposed before, but it may bear repeating as a way to help end the Israel-Palestinian- Gaza conflict. I think the other moderate Arab Muslim countries need to step up and form an interim government in Gaza and the West Bank. This interim government would stop Hamas and other militant groups from waging war from Gaza. A strong stable West Bank interim government can demand that the Israel West Bank Israel settlements be removed from the West Bank. This could lead to a fairer land settlement and perhaps a two-state solution in Israel and Palestine. There is precedent for such an interim government solution in other parts of the world. Such an interim government may need to be in place for ten years or more if needed. I know there is much bad history and hate and missed opportunities for peaceful solutions in the past, but we need to try again. For my whole life, Israel and the Muslim Arab countries have been at war..when will it end?
RobertRoe said:
This may have been proposed before, but it may bear repeating as a way to help end the Israel-Palestinian- Gaza conflict. I think the other moderate Arab Muslim countries need to step up and form an interim government in Gaza and the West Bank. This interim government would stop Hamas and other militant groups from waging war from Gaza. A strong stable West Bank interim government can demand that the Israel West Bank Israel settlements be removed from the West Bank. This could lead to a fairer land settlement and perhaps a two-state solution in Israel and Palestine. There is precedent for such an interim government solution in other parts of the world. Such an interim government may need to be in place for ten years or more if needed. I know there is much bad history and hate and missed opportunities for peaceful solutions in the past, but we need to try again. For my whole life, Israel and the Muslim Arab countries have been at war..when will it end?
This is an interesting proposal. I could see it working in Gaza but not the West Bank. Israel's current leaders have made it clear they want to take over parts of the West Bank and create more settlements while pushing out Palestinians. I don't think they would retreat from any progress towards those goals.
Christmas day in the occupied West Bank began with an attack on the Jenin refugee camp and several arrests.
The raid on Monday morning followed several others across the territory, which saw dozens of arrests and the shooting in the neck of a 17-year-old boy. Among towns hit was Bethlehem.
Normally, when a nation commits grossly illegal acts like ethnic cleansing, the international community's first response is divestment and sanctions. Unfortunately, people who advocate those policies in the US face blacklisting or worse.
GoSlugs said:
Normally, when a nation commits grossly illegal acts like ethnic cleansing, the international community's first response is divestment and sanctions. Unfortunately, people who advocate those policies in the US face blacklisting or worse.
As I’m sure you’re aware, the international BDS movement against Israel has been going since 2005, and has intensified since October with many ports around the world refusing to handle Israeli shipping or goods. Of course this also impacts the crews aboard such vessels, who are unable to dock, restock even necessary supplies for daily life let alone leave the ship and return to their families (an especially unfair punishment for contract crew of, say, Asian countries just trying to earn a living).
I know our Dockers have refused to handle at least 10 Israeli container ships at ports all around Australia, NZ would have refused some, I believe the UK also did…
GoSlugs said:
I mean, the elephant in the room is the illegal settlements. I don't see how there can be peace while they remain in place and I don't see how any government in Israel could stay in power if they tried to remove them.
An international movement to impose sanctions and a trade embargo on Israel until it removes the settlements might change public opinion on the ground but I can't imagine the US supporting such a movement and, without US support, it would be meaningless.
Well, there had previously been some agreement about some (I believe there was talk of shared use & shared profits? also there were efforts to halt and also reverse/evict the settlers, going back several years (cue corny jokes about stubborn Jews talking back to authority figures - which some settlers actually did, quite rudely). So it’s not as if all Israel is saying ‘Stuff youse’ to the rest of the world.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-44124396 is neat, concise history of creation and allocation of land in modern Israel. It also contains a link looking specifically at issues with West Bank settlements.
But the big thing is, there are 700,000+ Israeli settlers in the West Bank at last count PLUS internationals on aliyah for agricultural work experience (minimum 12 months) PLUS religious tourists of all Abrahamic faiths happily hiking, riding buses etc PLUS Druze who are/were allowed to wander traditional trails following nomadic culture PLUS any Israeli Arabs who might still live there…(I have read of a few Arab villages still there, some time ago) Add to that the chaos of millions of Gaza Palestinian refugees pouring into the area with little real planning, if it’s opened up… ummm yeah, another sure disaster.
I AM RE-POSTING HERE, WHERE THE TOPIC BELONGS, BECAUSE WE’RE CLUTTERING UP THE THEOLOGY THREAD. Sorry for shouting, I couldn’t get the bolding to work, so couldn’t distinguish commentary from editing notes. J. (Just realised I forgot to sleep last night; it’s 5:30 am)
I do not understand why the US and other countries have not blasted the Houthi who continue to launch missiles against international shipping in international waters.
RobertRoe said:
I do not understand why the US and other countries have not blasted the Houthi who continue to launch missiles against international shipping in international waters.
The Saudis have spent years bombing them with little effect. At this point, they are a pretty hard target.
RobertRoe said:
I do not understand why the US and other countries have not blasted the Houthi who continue to launch missiles against international shipping in international waters.
Attacking Houthi positions will prompt some sort of response from Iran - another step towards making the actual fighting regional. I don't know who would benefit from this except for Russia (revenue from oil sales) and domestic oil producers.
When the Abraham Accords were announced, my comment to a friend who thought it was a great thing was that now Israel was on the Sunni side of the Sunni-Shiite civil war.
Now the US and UK are officially on the Sunni side and Russia is on the Shiite side.
tjohn said:
When the Abraham Accords were announced, my comment to a friend who thought it was a great thing was that now Israel was on the Sunni side of the Sunni-Shiite civil war.
Now the US and UK are officially on the Sunni side and Russia is on the Shiite side.
so is Saudi Arabia, that’s why we had no business taking out saddam.
We can’t just let them sink cargo ships. We’ve shown enough restraint but yesterday was the worst attack on merchant ships, how much longer will we be in defensive posture? It’s time to stop this nonsense.
Jaytee said:
so is Saudi Arabia, that’s why we had no business taking out saddam.
We can’t just let them sink cargo ships. We’ve shown enough restraint but yesterday was the worst attack on merchant ships, how much longer will we be in defensive posture? It’s time to stop this nonsense.
you think our attack will stop something?
I hope to god you're right, because I'd say the odds are 50-50 this is just the beginning
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Punitive wars may be as old as time but collective punishment has definitely been a war crime since 1950.
Collective Punishment