Hamas and Israel
Jaytee said:
tjohn said:
When the Abraham Accords were announced, my comment to a friend who thought it was a great thing was that now Israel was on the Sunni side of the Sunni-Shiite civil war.
Now the US and UK are officially on the Sunni side and Russia is on the Shiite side.
so is Saudi Arabia, that’s why we had no business taking out saddam.
We can’t just let them sink cargo ships. We’ve shown enough restraint but yesterday was the worst attack on merchant ships, how much longer will we be in defensive posture? It’s time to stop this nonsense.
I thought two things about Iraq.
1. The original no-fly zone was unwise because it was an unstable arrangement that could only lead to trouble.
2. The second invasion was ill-advised and not justified.
I wish I had been wise enough to point out that taking out Saddam would only help the Shiite side. I have to believe that some Middle East experts were trying to point this out at the time and were ignored.
drummerboy said:
you think our attack will stop something?
I hope to god you're right, because I'd say the odds are 50-50 this is just the beginning
what do you suggest we do? We can not continue pussyfooting around the issue. The western world is threatened with extinction and you’re worried about taking out our enemies? Come on!
Jaytee said:
The western world is threatened with extinction ...
What the ...
Oh my bad… it’s just a little game Iran is playing… death to America and Israel and England and whoever they see as their enemy is just a little expression of brotherly love. No wonder democrats are wondering why trumpenstein and republicans in general have so much support. Keep your rose colored glasses on… day and night.
Jaytee said:
Oh my bad… it’s just a little game Iran is playing… death to America and Israel and England and whoever they see as their enemy is just a little expression of brotherly love. No wonder democrats are wondering why trumpenstein and republicans in general have so much support. Keep your rose colored glasses on… day and night.
Same question, looking forward to being enlightened.
Jaytee said:
drummerboy said:
you think our attack will stop something?
I hope to god you're right, because I'd say the odds are 50-50 this is just the beginning
what do you suggest we do? We can not continue pussyfooting around the issue. The western world is threatened with extinction and you’re worried about taking out our enemies? Come on!
sorry. shoot me for being worried if we end up with a war.
Hamas clearly baited Israel on 10/7
And the Houthis are clearly baiting us now.
and don't ask me how we, or Israel, should have responded. what we both should have done should have happened years ago. now it's too late.
tjohn said:
I thought two things about Iraq.
1. The original no-fly zone was unwise because it was an unstable arrangement that could only lead to trouble.
2. The second invasion was ill-advised and not justified.
I wish I had been wise enough to point out that taking out Saddam would only help the Shiite side. I have to believe that some Middle East experts were trying to point this out at the time and were ignored.
my fuzzy recollection re Iraq was that the Bushies were kind of clueless re Sunnis and Shiites.
I think my enthusiasm for Joe Biden has hit a new low. Arms "sales" to the Israel without Congressional approval, new wars for Israel, without Congressional consultation. The imperial presidency is alive and well.
Good thing I always vote against the other guy. I worry though that other democrats may be less consistent.
What exactly is our national interest in Yemen? How many American flagged merchant ships have been attacked? If all these ship owners who fly the flags of Panama and Liberia wanted the US Navy to protect their investments, maybe they should have registered their ships in the United States.
If people want a US destroyer coming to their aid every time a tribe of hill people take up piracy, they should be willing to help pay for that destroyer.
GoSlugs said:
I think my enthusiasm for Joe Biden has hit a new low. Arms "sales" to the Israel without Congressional approval, new wars for Israel, without Congressional consultation. The imperial presidency is alive and well.
Good thing I always vote against the other guy. I worry though that other democrats may be less consistent.
Totally understand how you’re feeling. We found out this morning that ‘of course we’re flying/assisting alongside your & the UK’s efforts in this campaign & the Houthi one. How could we not? Our military’s already with you…’ Huh?? Not even discussed with Parliament?? Or in Cabinet??
GoSlugs said:
What exactly is our national interest in Yemen?
I don't agree with the way we've been supporting Saudi Arabia's war against the Houthis in Yemen, but I do think that the US does have a national interest in keeping the Red Sea passage safe for shipping, and I do see that as a legitimate use of our navy (as, earlier, it was used against piracy around the Horn of Africa, and in fact in many other places pretty much as long as there's been a US navy).
Easy way to solve the Houthi problem: force Israel to accept a cease-fire and win a few side benefits like saving thousands of lives, including the 100+Israeli hostages, and further fatalities among Israeli soldiers (more than 200 so far) and enabling the start of an international effort to bring about a two-state solution.
"The Houthis don’t have to succeed in striking additional commercial vessels, or even successfully retaliate against U.S. military ships. All they need to do is to try," writes @tparsi https://t.co/DE2LQ0Pzeh
— TIME (@TIME) January 16, 2024
PVW said:
GoSlugs said:
What exactly is our national interest in Yemen?
I don't agree with the way we've been supporting Saudi Arabia's war against the Houthis in Yemen, but I do think that the US does have a national interest in keeping the Red Sea passage safe for shipping, and I do see that as a legitimate use of our navy (as, earlier, it was used against piracy around the Horn of Africa, and in fact in many other places pretty much as long as there's been a US navy).
Trade through the Red Sea/Suez Canal represents 30% of global container traffic and over $1 trillion annually.
yahooyahoo said:
Trade through the Red Sea/Suez Canal represents 30% of global container traffic and over $1 trillion annually.
Remember when it was just one ship getting stuck that screwed up world trade?
Secretary of State Blinken and other Western diplomats have talked about the concern of the Israel-Hamas war spreading. And with Hezbollah, the Houthis attacks on ships in international waters, and Iran's missile strikes on Pakistan, it seems like the diplomatic concerns are well founded. Iran just will not stop attacking Israel via their proxies. I also wonder what the status of Egypt is since they control and earn money from the Suez Canal. They seem unstable with Sunni vs. Shiite conflicts. No peaceful solution is in sight.
RobertRoe said:
Secretary of State Blinken and other Western diplomats have talked about the concern of the Israel-Hamas war spreading. And with Hezbollah, the Houthis attacks on ships in international waters, and Iran's missile strikes on Pakistan, it seems like the diplomatic concerns are well founded. Iran just will not stop attacking Israel via their proxies. I also wonder what the status of Egypt is since they control and earn money from the Suez Canal. They seem unstable with Sunni vs. Shiite conflicts. No peaceful solution is in sight.
Have you had the warning that coffee prices (esp instant coffee) are going to increase because of this??? Apparently because of the way good coffee is bulk roasted and processed, it’s mostly all container- transported through this region.
I’m starting to buy an extra bag of beans when I shop - and I’m buying domestic-grown, because it’s good (Byron Bay).
I am surprised and saddened to read that over 100 UN workers have been killed in Gaza. We need to mourn and pay honor to those who gave their lives helping others in a war-torn poverty-stricken part of the world.
exact numbers are hard to come by, but probably over 60 journalists have been killed by the IDF since 10/7.
https://cpj.org/2023/12/israel-gaza-war-takes-record-toll-on-journalists/
While I do understand the importance of the water ways leading to the Suez Canal, I still think that having your vessel flagged in a US or NATO nation ought to be a precondition for protection by the US Navy. This practice of flagging in banana republics enriches greedy billionaires while endangering crews and underfunding the very forces they rely on to maintain the peace.
Support for a two state solution should be a bare minimum requirement for Israel to receive aid from the US.
GoSlugs said:
Support for a two state solution should be a bare minimum requirement for Israel to receive aid from the US.
How do you envision us moving to a position such as this?
Please use pictures breaking down the population.
1. Who they support in the 2024 election.
2. Whether or not they agree with making U.S. aid contingent on a two state solution.
3. Whether or not they agree with making U.S. aid contingent on a two state solution if Trump supports it versus Biden.
tjohn said:
How do you envision us moving to a position such as this?
Please use pictures breaking down the population.
1. Who they support in the 2024 election.
2. Whether or not they agree with making U.S. aid contingent on a two state solution.
3. Whether or not they agree with making U.S. aid contingent on a two state solution if Trump supports it versus Biden.
I was speaking of ethics, not policy.
That said, perhaps you should think about the votes being lost to a policy of shipping artillery shells to mass murderers without the approval of Congress. The reckless course currently being pursued is not without its costs, both spiritual and political.
GoSlugs said:
tjohn said:
How do you envision us moving to a position such as this?
Please use pictures breaking down the population.
1. Who they support in the 2024 election.
2. Whether or not they agree with making U.S. aid contingent on a two state solution.
3. Whether or not they agree with making U.S. aid contingent on a two state solution if Trump supports it versus Biden.
I was speaking of ethics, not policy.
That said, perhaps you should think about the votes being lost to a policy of shipping artillery shells to mass murderers without the approval of Congress. The reckless course currently being pursued is not without its costs, both spiritual and political.
I try not to let ethics inform my foreign policy choices. What policy is going to lead us to a better place in 1 year or 5 years or 10 years. That is the only thing that matters.
tjohn said:
I try not to let ethics inform my foreign policy choices.
I have to say, that is a damning self indictment. Thank you for your honesty.
GoSlugs said:
tjohn said:
I try not to let ethics inform my foreign policy choices.
I have to say, that is a damning self indictment. Thank you for your honesty.
No, it isn't. You just don't get it. Ethics are a consideration when making policy decisions. But they aren't the be all and end all of policy making.
tjohn said:
GoSlugs said:
tjohn said:
How do you envision us moving to a position such as this?
Please use pictures breaking down the population.
1. Who they support in the 2024 election.
2. Whether or not they agree with making U.S. aid contingent on a two state solution.
3. Whether or not they agree with making U.S. aid contingent on a two state solution if Trump supports it versus Biden.
I was speaking of ethics, not policy.
That said, perhaps you should think about the votes being lost to a policy of shipping artillery shells to mass murderers without the approval of Congress. The reckless course currently being pursued is not without its costs, both spiritual and political.
I try not to let ethics inform my foreign policy choices. What policy is going to lead us to a better place in 1 year or 5 years or 10 years. That is the only thing that matters.
In fact, I would imagine every U.S. president has had moments where they just wanted to cut Israel off. But they didn't want to commit political suicide.
Why is it that Iran will not make peace with Israel? Other Arab countries may not like Israel, but they have not made war for decades and even some peace and trade agreements have been established. What is it that Iran gains from its continual proxy (Hezbullah, Hamas, and now Houthis), wars with Israel? As much as I can discern from news reports, is that the general population of Iran does not want continued war. The demonstrations where they chant, "Death to Israel and death to America" do not seem to be citizen-led; but appear to be organized by the Iran political leadership. The demonstrators seem to be required to demonstrate or perhaps they are even paid.
I think the other Arab countries have failed and betrayed the Palestinians. Palestine and Gaza could have been a peaceful prosperous land with a Mediterranean seaport, but instead, they are held hostage by Hamas and other fanatics.
RobertRoe said:
Why is it that Iran will not make peace with Israel? Other Arab countries may not like Israel, but they have not made war for decades and even some peace and trade agreements have been established. What is it that Iran gains from its continual proxy (Hezbullah, Hamas, and now Houthis), wars with Israel? As much as I can discern from news reports, is that the general population of Iran does not want continued war. The demonstrations where they chant, "Death to Israel and death to America" do not seem to be citizen-led; but appear to be organized by the Iran political leadership. The demonstrators seem to be required to demonstrate or perhaps they are even paid.
I think the other Arab countries have failed and betrayed the Palestinians. Palestine and Gaza could have been a peaceful prosperous land with a Mediterranean seaport, but instead, they are held hostage by Hamas and other fanatics.
exactly!!!
But they play the propaganda game very well in making Israel look like the worst criminal. Iran is evil. Period!
RobertRoe said:
What is it that Iran gains from its continual proxy (Hezbullah, Hamas, and now Houthis), wars with Israel? As much as I can discern from news reports, is that the general population of Iran does not want continued war. .
Iran cares about the other conflict in the region - the quest for regional dominance along the Shia-Sunni divide. That is why Iran support Hezbollah and Hamas. I suppose one hope is to drive a wedge between the Saudi government for whom Palestinians are not a priority and the Arab Street which does care about Palestinians especially when these wars flare up.
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I think there was no alternative to a military response in this case. The problem is that missiles and drones are so portable, it isn't as easy as finding and destroying a single launching point.