Paul - you and your experts completely overthink Putin. He's not that difficult. He wanted Ukraine - got more resistance then expected. Got to play with his weapons - threaten the world with his arsenal and in the end will get what he initially wanted anyway which was the Donbas region. He pretty much claimed it when he recognized Donetsk and Luhansk as "independent nations".
Now he's looking for a way out to minimize his war crimes and appear that he's solving the humanitarian crisis brought on by the Nazis. I'm just wondering how he'll handle his own countrymen when this is all over. He is a master of suppressing freedom of speech and the press.
ok, so when the news headline is Bombardments are increasing on major cities - is this correct? Or are they not bombardments with if they don't come from planes? Thanks for correcting the syntax of the "invasion".
Man - there must be more nazis then we realized in these "civilian" sectors.
I don't think the US deliberately targeted civilians in Fallujah, Mosul, Raqqa when it devastated those cities with every type of armament. I think it's the same with the Russians in this war.
Is that a whataboutism? So Vlad is in fact not hitting civilian areas on purpose - just like the US. Good to know.
I like Glenn's description of whataboutism (see graphic).
Glenn uses the description to introduce a great discussion by Mehdi Hassan and Ayman Mohyeldin on (a) US failure to sign on to cluster bomb ban which taints US criticism of Russians' use and (b) US wants Putin tried by International Criminal Court, but US does not recognize ICC
Paul - you and your experts completely overthink Putin. He's not that difficult. He wanted Ukraine - got more resistance then expected. Got to play with his weapons - threaten the world with his arsenal and in the end will get what he initially wanted anyway which was the Donbas region. He pretty much claimed it when he recognized Donetsk and Luhansk as "independent nations".
Now he's looking for a way out to minimize his war crimes and appear that he's solving the humanitarian crisis brought on by the Nazis. I'm just wondering how he'll handle his own countrymen when this is all over. He is a master of suppressing freedom of speech and the press.
Here's Putin on Ukraine for 24 minutes. If you don't see subtitles click the button. He says no conscripts are in Ukraine. Only professional military. I'm done until tomorrow night. By the way, the links for your Russian articles don't work for me. How are you getting them?
It’s amazing that little Ukraine in its darkest hour, has managed to turn Russia propaganda on its head. The other countries in the region are becoming less afraid of Putin’s army because this invasion has exposed just how weak they really are. He’s trying to recruit Syrians, trying. All he has left is to grind the Ukrainian people down with indiscriminate bombing, in part because the bombs are inaccurate from long distance. I’m thinking this “adventure” will certainly change the west looks at Russia. The evolution of geopolitics is taking place, and some people just can’t see it. You can not continue to spread propaganda when reality doesn’t support it.
@paulsurovell - I'm assuming that at this point your blindness is no longer willing but is who you've become. Your comments about we the war should never have started and we should stop the war are Orwellian because you completely omit Putin's responsibility here and place blame on "the war" and the US.
Additionally, you fail to comprehend - as does the writer from the Quincy Institute - that Putin is (rightly) not concerned with a military threat from Ukraine, but rather an economic and political threat from a Western Europe drifting Ukraine. It really is just that simple. The closer Western style democracies with open markets gets to Russia, the greater the threat to Putin's autocratic/kleptocratic lifestyle.
Here's Putin on Ukraine for 24 minutes. If you don't see subtitles click the button. He says no conscripts are in Ukraine. Only professional military. I'm done until tomorrow night. By the way, the links for your Russian articles don't work for me. How are you getting them?
I like Glenn's description of whataboutism (see graphic).
If Russia detonated a nuclear weapon over Ukraine to scare the government into surrendering, while the rest of us reacted in horror Paul and Glenn & co. would say, "What about the fact that the U.S. bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki?"
Paul - you and your experts completely overthink Putin. He's not that difficult. He wanted Ukraine - got more resistance then expected. Got to play with his weapons - threaten the world with his arsenal and in the end will get what he initially wanted anyway which was the Donbas region. He pretty much claimed it when he recognized Donetsk and Luhansk as "independent nations".
Now he's looking for a way out to minimize his war crimes and appear that he's solving the humanitarian crisis brought on by the Nazis. I'm just wondering how he'll handle his own countrymen when this is all over. He is a master of suppressing freedom of speech and the press.
This is really the problem at this point. For Putin to have succeeded, the Ukrainian government and military would have to had collapsed and disappeared as quickly as the Afghan government. In addition, Putin expected NATO to do more or less nothing. I think everybody is surprised at the way things have turned out.
In any case, Putin made an enormous error, but we need to find some sort of peace. Neutral Ukraine less the Donbas and Crimea is fine as long as Ukraine is free to integrate into the EU. If Putin can spin this as a win in a new world where NATO is reinvigorated and Europeans reminded of how monstrous the Russian's can be, then so be it.
Without peace, the spillover effects from this war are too unpredictable. For example, what will wheat shortages and rising wheat prices do to countries in Africa.
In any case, Putin made an enormous error, but we need to find some sort of peace. Neutral Ukraine less the Donbas and Crimea is fine as long as Ukraine is free to integrate into the EU.
Would Putin really consider a Ukraine that was part of the EU as "neutral"?
And, for all that Paul and co throw "we" around, any settlement will depend on what Ukrainians are willing to accept. I suppose Paul is arguing that the US should link up with Russia and exert pressure on Ukraine to capitulate -- American imperialism in the service of Russian imperialism! Eurasia and Oceania have always been allies.
I don't think the US deliberately targeted civilians in Fallujah, Mosul, Raqqa when it devastated those cities with every type of armament. I think it's the same with the Russians in this war.
Is that a whataboutism? So Vlad is in fact not hitting civilian areas on purpose - just like the US. Good to know.
I like Glenn's description of whataboutism (see graphic).
Glenn uses the description to introduce a great discussion by Mehdi Hassan and Ayman Mohyeldin on (a) US failure to sign on to cluster bomb ban which taints US criticism of Russians' use and (b) US wants Putin tried by International Criminal Court, but US does not recognize ICC
In any case, Putin made an enormous error, but we need to find some sort of peace. Neutral Ukraine less the Donbas and Crimea is fine as long as Ukraine is free to integrate into the EU.
Would Putin really consider a Ukraine that was part of the EU as "neutral"?
And, for all that Paul and co throw "we" around, any settlement will depend on what Ukrainians are willing to accept. I suppose Paul is arguing that the US should link up with Russia and exert pressure on Ukraine to capitulate -- American imperialism in the service of Russian imperialism! Eurasia and Oceania have always been allies.
Well, considering that his primary objective is to vassalize Ukraine, perhaps not. And the Ukrainians have their own opinion and their resistance is inspiring the street across Europe.
Would Putin really consider a Ukraine that was part of the EU as "neutral"?
And, for all that Paul and co throw "we" around, any settlement will depend on what Ukrainians are willing to accept. I suppose Paul is arguing that the US should link up with Russia and exert pressure on Ukraine to capitulate -- American imperialism in the service of Russian imperialism! Eurasia and Oceania have always been allies.
Putin isn't opposed to Ukraine being in NATO because of the threat of invasion. He's opposed because it would make it more difficult to bully or otherwise cause Ukraine to comply with Russia's economic and foreign policy interests.
Read the Guardian article by Anatol Lieven that I just posted.
This article only gives Putin 1 out of the 3 demands you said we should agree to in order for Russia to withdraw from Ukraine. This: "The offer to Ukraine should be a massive reconstruction package that will also help Ukraine to move towards the West economically and politically rather than militarily" will never be agreed to by Putin.
This: "perhaps Ukraine could make a counter-offer that would meet Moscow’s concerns about the rights and future of the Russian minority in Ukraine by guaranteeing these under the Ukrainian constitution" will never be agreed to by Putin. Putin has already declared that Russia recognizes Donetsk and Luhansk as independent nations, he's not going to give them back.
Recognizing a Russian Crimea doesn't matter that much to Putin. As the article states, they already have it, so I don't believe that's much of a bargaining chip for the West.
Do you honestly think that Putin was highballing his demands so he could be satisfied with a compromise? He sure as **** isn't going to walk away leaving Zelenskyy just sitting there.
I like Glenn's description of whataboutism (see graphic).
Glenn uses the description to introduce a great discussion by Mehdi Hassan and Ayman Mohyeldin on (a) US failure to sign on to cluster bomb ban which taints US criticism of Russians' use and (b) US wants Putin tried by International Criminal Court, but US does not recognize ICC
Greenwald's post implies that the "Whataboutor" actually first acknowledges that the "Whataboutee" is actually correct in his/her criticism before executing the "Whatabout." This rarely, if ever, happens.
Read the Guardian article by Anatol Lieven that I just posted.
This article only gives Putin 1 out of the 3 demands you said we should agree to in order for Russia to withdraw from Ukraine. This: "The offer to Ukraine should be a massive reconstruction package that will also help Ukraine to move towards the West economically and politically rather than militarily" will never be agreed to by Putin.
This: "perhaps Ukraine could make a counter-offer that would meet Moscow’s concerns about the rights and future of the Russian minority in Ukraine by guaranteeing these under the Ukrainian constitution" will never be agreed to by Putin. Putin has already declared that Russia recognizes Donetsk and Luhansk as independent nations, he's not going to give them back.
Recognizing a Russian Crimea doesn't matter that much to Putin. As the article states, they already have it, so I don't believe that's much of a bargaining chip for the West.
Do you honestly think that Putin was highballing his demands so he could be satisfied with a compromise? He sure as **** isn't going to walk away leaving Zelenskyy just sitting there.
War aims don't survive the opening engagements. Whatever Putin wanted on February 23rd before his disastrous decision to invade Ukraine has undoubtedly evolved into something less compromising. If Ukraine had crumbled like Afghanistan, he could actually afford to appear magnanimous. Now, having been embarrassed at a number of levels, he will want more.
When you’re pushing back against a dominant POV, you focus on the points of disagreement.
If you're not only pushing back, but hoping to persuade, you're more likely to find success by finding common ground. "You believe X. I agree, and it's a strong point, but I think you should also take into account Y" vs "You believe X, but what about Y."
At least, that's the theory. In practice, who knows if anyone's ever been persuaded by an argument they weren't already predisposed to accept. But even in that pessimistic scenario, the first approach at least demonstrates that one's paid attention to, and seriously considered, the point POV they're pushing back against.
If you're not only pushing back, but hoping to persuade, you're more likely to find success by finding common ground.
I doubt Glenn (or Paul, for that matter) is hoping to persuade, because if he were, he (and Paul, for that matter) is smart enough to try that different tack.
The Russian Guard reported that they fully control the Zaporizhzhya NPP
The representative of the Russian Guard told reporters about full control over the situation at the Zaporozhye NPP.
The Ministry of Defense stated that on the night of March 4, a Ukrainian sabotage group staged an armed provocation, which resulted in a clash in the area of the training center (UTC) of the nuclear power plant. The object is located outside the perimeter of the station with power units. The station was taken under control after the suppression of firing points by Russian forces.
"During the clashes, fire weapons were suppressed. While retreating, the sabotage group set fire to the building of the training center. The fire was extinguished by the Ministry of Emergency Situations. During the clashes and extinguishing the fire, there were no civilians in this complex," the representative of the department specified.
-------------------------
Paul do you have a site we can go to - to verify the Ukrainian sabotaged sites? Can you confirm who set fire to the training center?
Paul - can you find western reports of Nazis killing civilians in the Donbass region?
Why "true Aryans" hate the inhabitants of Donbass
For several days, we have been seeing on TV reports people escaping from the blockaded cities of Donbass (primarily Mariupol and Volnovakha) and telling what they had to go through. Many are sincerely amazed at the callousness and heartlessness of Ukrainian militants, who regularly fire on civilians, whom they consider to be their fellow citizens. Women with small children, the elderly, and the disabled are forced to fight their way through minefields, through streets shelled by militants, through barbed wires and stretch marks.
All the more shocking are the stories of survivors about what tens of thousands of residents of Mariupol are now experiencing, taken hostage by Ukrainian neo-Nazis from Azov, sitting in basements without light, without heat, without food and water. I think if one of these unfortunates then publishes his memories of being in Nazi captivity, these memoirs will be quite comparable to the diary of Anne Frank.
@paulsurovell - I'm assuming that at this point your blindness is no longer willing but is who you've become. Your comments about we the war should never have started and we should stop the war are Orwellian because you completely omit Putin's responsibility here and place blame on "the war" and the US.
Additionally, you fail to comprehend - as does the writer from the Quincy Institute - that Putin is (rightly) not concerned with a military threat from Ukraine, but rather an economic and political threat from a Western Europe drifting Ukraine. It really is just that simple. The closer Western style democracies with open markets gets to Russia, the greater the threat to Putin's autocratic/kleptocratic lifestyle.
The "blindness" that you allege is a projection of your blindness to what I've posted, especially the opinions of the long list of foreign policy experts, from George Kennan to Daniel Patrick Moynihan, to former US ambassadors to Moscow Jack Matlock and Thomas Pickering to Anatol Lieven.
Paul - can you find western reports of Nazis killing civilians in the Donbass region?
Why "true Aryans" hate the inhabitants of Donbass
For several days, we have been seeing on TV reports people escaping from the blockaded cities of Donbass (primarily Mariupol and Volnovakha) and telling what they had to go through. Many are sincerely amazed at the callousness and heartlessness of Ukrainian militants, who regularly fire on civilians, whom they consider to be their fellow citizens. Women with small children, the elderly, and the disabled are forced to fight their way through minefields, through streets shelled by militants, through barbed wires and stretch marks.
All the more shocking are the stories of survivors about what tens of thousands of residents of Mariupol are now experiencing, taken hostage by Ukrainian neo-Nazis from Azov, sitting in basements without light, without heat, without food and water. I think if one of these unfortunates then publishes his memories of being in Nazi captivity, these memoirs will be quite comparable to the diary of Anne Frank.
Not sure how many Western reporters are in Donbas, but
Read the Guardian article by Anatol Lieven that I just posted.
This article only gives Putin 1 out of the 3 demands you said we should agree to in order for Russia to withdraw from Ukraine. This: "The offer to Ukraine should be a massive reconstruction package that will also help Ukraine to move towards the West economically and politically rather than militarily" will never be agreed to by Putin.
This: "perhaps Ukraine could make a counter-offer that would meet Moscow’s concerns about the rights and future of the Russian minority in Ukraine by guaranteeing these under the Ukrainian constitution" will never be agreed to by Putin. Putin has already declared that Russia recognizes Donetsk and Luhansk as independent nations, he's not going to give them back.
Recognizing a Russian Crimea doesn't matter that much to Putin. As the article states, they already have it, so I don't believe that's much of a bargaining chip for the West.
Do you honestly think that Putin was highballing his demands so he could be satisfied with a compromise? He sure as **** isn't going to walk away leaving Zelenskyy just sitting there.
I think neutrality (non-NATO) is the most important demand and could be agreed to by Ukraine.
The other demands are more ambiguous -- "demilitarization" and "denazification" and the "independence" of the Donbas, so they by definition are subject to negotiation/compromise. Ukraine previously agreed to partial autonomy for Donetsk and Luhansk (Minsk agreement) so there's a basis for negotiating what "independence" means. I doubt the Russians are going to negotiate over Crimea.
The West is morally right to oppose the monstrous and illegal Russian war and to have imposed exceptionally severe sanctions on Russia in response, but would be morally wrong to oppose a reasonable agreement to end the invasion and spare the people of Ukraine terrible suffering. America’s own record over the past generation gives no basis for such self-righteous hyper-legalism.
Ukraine has "biological research facilities," says Undersecretary of State Victoria Nuland, when asked by Sen Rubio if Ukraine has biological or chemical weapons, and says she's worried Russia may get them. But she says she's 100% sure if there's a biological attack, it's Russia. pic.twitter.com/uo3dHDMfAS
You guys are gearing up for a repeat of the "false flag" accusations that you make in response to Assad's attacking of his own people in Syria, aren't you?
The "blindness" that you allege is a projection of your blindness to what I've posted, especially the opinions of the long list of foreign policy experts, from George Kennan to Daniel Patrick Moynihan, to former US ambassadors to Moscow Jack Matlock and Thomas Pickering to Anatol Lieven.
Amazing how only you (and Terp and nan) are not blind. Truly amazing.
Paul - you and your experts completely overthink Putin. He's not that difficult. He wanted Ukraine - got more resistance then expected. Got to play with his weapons - threaten the world with his arsenal and in the end will get what he initially wanted anyway which was the Donbas region. He pretty much claimed it when he recognized Donetsk and Luhansk as "independent nations".
Now he's looking for a way out to minimize his war crimes and appear that he's solving the humanitarian crisis brought on by the Nazis. I'm just wondering how he'll handle his own countrymen when this is all over. He is a master of suppressing freedom of speech and the press.