Read the Guardian article by Anatol Lieven that I just posted.
This article only gives Putin 1 out of the 3 demands you said we should agree to in order for Russia to withdraw from Ukraine. This: "The offer to Ukraine should be a massive reconstruction package that will also help Ukraine to move towards the West economically and politically rather than militarily" will never be agreed to by Putin.
This: "perhaps Ukraine could make a counter-offer that would meet Moscow’s concerns about the rights and future of the Russian minority in Ukraine by guaranteeing these under the Ukrainian constitution" will never be agreed to by Putin. Putin has already declared that Russia recognizes Donetsk and Luhansk as independent nations, he's not going to give them back.
Recognizing a Russian Crimea doesn't matter that much to Putin. As the article states, they already have it, so I don't believe that's much of a bargaining chip for the West.
Do you honestly think that Putin was highballing his demands so he could be satisfied with a compromise? He sure as **** isn't going to walk away leaving Zelenskyy just sitting there.
I think neutrality (non-NATO) is the most important demand and could be agreed to by Ukraine.
The other demands are more ambiguous -- "demilitarization" and "denazification" and the "independence" of the Donbas, so they by definition are subject to negotiation/compromise. Ukraine previously agreed to partial autonomy for Donetsk and Luhansk (Minsk agreement) so there's a basis for negotiating what "independence" means. I doubt the Russians are going to negotiate over Crimea.
The West is morally right to oppose the monstrous and illegal Russian war and to have imposed exceptionally severe sanctions on Russia in response, but would be morally wrong to oppose a reasonable agreement to end the invasion and spare the people of Ukraine terrible suffering. America’s own record over the past generation gives no basis for such self-righteous hyper-legalism.
Not sure why I can't quote your post properly but anyway, Lieven's article is the Lord of the Rings of Ukraine proposals.
Paul - can you find western reports of Nazis killing civilians in the Donbass region?
Why "true Aryans" hate the inhabitants of Donbass
For several days, we have been seeing on TV reports people escaping from the blockaded cities of Donbass (primarily Mariupol and Volnovakha) and telling what they had to go through. Many are sincerely amazed at the callousness and heartlessness of Ukrainian militants, who regularly fire on civilians, whom they consider to be their fellow citizens. Women with small children, the elderly, and the disabled are forced to fight their way through minefields, through streets shelled by militants, through barbed wires and stretch marks.
All the more shocking are the stories of survivors about what tens of thousands of residents of Mariupol are now experiencing, taken hostage by Ukrainian neo-Nazis from Azov, sitting in basements without light, without heat, without food and water. I think if one of these unfortunates then publishes his memories of being in Nazi captivity, these memoirs will be quite comparable to the diary of Anne Frank.
Not sure how many Western reporters are in Donbas, but
and here's an interview with a French reporter in the Donbas:
When were the scary pictures' on that army taken? This reporter has also had issues with reporting on the Donbass area (fake news) without proper evidence. She's very anti-nazi, just like Putin. I'll try to do some more research, is she one of your trusted sources?
Since the beginning of the open invasion of the territory of Ukraine, it is the Russian armed forces of occupation that deliberately bombard the residential areas and civilians of Donbass. Numerous studies carried out by independent organizations as well as data from Ukrainian security agencies attest to this.
Russian media and Internet users are actively broadcasting an interview with French “journalist” Anne-Laure Bonnel on CNews TV, in which she claims that the Ukrainian army would deliberately bombard civilians in Donbass with Grads (multiple rocket launchers). “Ukrainian authorities killed 13,000 locals over eight years,” Bonnel said. “Here in the Donbass, in the Russian-speaking part of the country, there are shellings. This suits the Ukrainian government.
Kremlin propaganda has been building a narrative for years that the rights of the Russian-speaking population are being violated in Ukraine and that there is a civil war in Donbass. Bonnel's claim that the Ukrainian government would bomb the Russian-speaking population of Donbass is part of this propaganda.
StopFake has repeatedly refuted this disinformation – for example in “The Civil War” and “Big Brother's Help: The Main Fakes About the War in Donbass” and “Why the Language Issue Wasn't a Reason to start the war in the Donbass”.
StopFake previously shed light on the activities of Anne-Laure Bonnel, who premiered her 'documentary' film Donbass in 2017. For foreign viewers (the film was dubbed into French), Bonnel repeated key propaganda messages Russian – that residents of eastern Ukraine were harassed for their attachment to the Russian language and their pro-Russian position; that the events in the Donbass were a civil war; that the Ukrainian army deliberately shelled residential areas and used prohibited weapons; and that the Kyiv authorities were illegitimate, etc.
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ok, I'm sure Paul's retort will be discrediting stopfake.
I don't know about Mr. Surovell himself, but he approvingly cites this guy all the time on issues involving Syria and Ukraine -
Under a wave of threats, Ekaterina Sergatskova was forced to flee Ukraine after documenting links between the Stop Fake info op that hosted Yale's @jasonintrator and neo-Nazi outfits
Paul - the news is using the word "bombs" dropped in regards to an attack on a maternity hospital. Was this the correct terminology? I know you weren't happy when this term was used previously close to the nuclear plant. And, who did it? Russia is being accused of it, but Vlad will probably blame it on the Nazis, how can we verify?
"I must note with great regret that the Ukrainian nationalists went on another provocation, an extremely dangerous provocation. They attacked the substation and power lines that feed the Chernobyl nuclear power plant. Russian specialists have taken prompt measures to switch to backup diesel generator power sources," Pankov said.
"At present, the Ukrainian side is avoiding organizing any repair and restoration work in every possible way. In our opinion, this once again confirms the absolutely purposeful and provocative nature of the actions of the nationalists," Pankov added.
Ukrainian nationalists (nazis) are preparing a provocation with the use of poisonous substances, said Defense Ministry spokesman Major General Igor Konashenkov.
"On the night of March 9, about 80 tons of ammonia were delivered to the village of Zolochiv northwest of Kharkov by Ukrainian nationalists. According to the residents who left Zolochiv, the nationalists teach them how to act correctly in a chemical attack," said a representative of the department.
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Be prepared for the nazis to blame this on Russia when it happens.
Ah - we have confirmation from Maria Butina that Russia is NOT bombing civilian targets - Ukrainians are:
“We have tons of evidence that the Russia army does not touch, does not bomb civilian populations,” Butina said in explaining the absurd bit of Putin propaganda
I doubt Glenn (or Paul, for that matter) is hoping to persuade, because if he were, he (and Paul, for that matter) is smart enough to try that different tack.
The other problem with the whatabout approach isn't just that it's unpersuasive, it also actively undermines positions both people agree on.
For instance, like Paul (and most people on this board), I think the Iraq invasion was immoral and a mistake. When someone responds to Russia's invasion of Ukraine by saying "what about America's invasion of Iraq," though, that bundles these two issues together, so that one rhetorically has to either say that both Russia and the US's actions were unjustified, or neither was.
It's a high stakes rhetorical approach if used against someone who supported the Iraq war. You're betting you'll be able to leverage their opposition to the Russian invasion to force them to rethink their views on America's, or accepting that they'll reject your criticism now double down on their previous support of the Iraq invasion PLUS now also have become supporters of the Russian invasion. Given the human psychology, the former is less likely than the latter, so an anti-war activist adopting this approach is, on balance, working to increase support for Russia's invasion.
When deployed against someone who's already opposed to America's Iraq invasion, it's an even more perplexing strategy. Since you both already agree that the Iraq invasion was wrong, why bring it up in this context? It feels like an attempt to deflect attention away from what's happening right now in Ukraine, which feels like an attempt to shield Russia, which raises doubts as to exactly how opposed to immoral wars the person whabouting is... In short, it raises strong suspicions that the whatabouter is an unreliable source, more committed to a reverse-American exceptionalism than in actually opposing unjustified wars.
I wonder how the Russian people like this one. I also wonder how Vlad likes it? Seems like with these companies leaving - it will be a big opportunity for his follow oligarchs to take over all the businesses that are leaving.
Visa and Mastercard temporarily stop working in Russia
As explained in the Bank of Russia and the National System of Payment Cards, this means that the cards of these systems issued by Russian banks will work in Russia in a normal mode, but will stop working abroad and in foreign online stores, ApplePay and GooglePay.
All Visa and Mastercard cards will fully work in Russia until the expiration date indicated on the card. With them, you can make all the usual operations without restrictions: pay for goods and services, replenish cards and withdraw cash from ATMs, make transfers from card to card.
When deployed against someone who's already opposed to America's Iraq invasion, it's an even more perplexing strategy. Since you both already agree that the Iraq invasion was wrong, why bring it up in this context? It feels like an attempt to deflect attention away from what's happening right now in Ukraine, which feels like an attempt to shield Russia, which raises doubts as to exactly how opposed to immoral wars the person whabouting is... In short, it raises strong suspicions that the whatabouter is an unreliable source, more committed to a reverse-American exceptionalism than in actually opposing unjustified wars.
On this topic, as on others, I'm your choir. Not that you preach. When commenters preach, I think what counts is not what it feels like but what I can gain from it, so I'm happy to listen to people like Paul without worrying too much about their balance or agreeability or deflection. Give it to me straight, or even whataboutted, and I can sort out what makes sense to me. (With latitude, delightful latitude, to needle them in return.) Because it's not as if I'm trying to persuade them, either.
In short: They're trying to open your eyes to some things. You're trying to open their eyes to some things. All eyes open as they see fit.
As for Paul specifically, I find my share of faults (as you may have noticed, Paul), but nothing he has written on MOL ever made me suspect his professed commitments weren't sincere. Also, I've had the pleasure of chatting with him a few times in person, which often helps in online trust.
I wonder how the Russian people like this one. I also wonder how Vlad likes it? Seems like with these companies leaving - it will be a big opportunity for his follow oligarchs to take over all the businesses that are leaving.
Visa and Mastercard temporarily stop working in Russia
As explained in the Bank of Russia and the National System of Payment Cards, this means that the cards of these systems issued by Russian banks will work in Russia in a normal mode, but will stop working abroad and in foreign online stores, ApplePay and GooglePay.
All Visa and Mastercard cards will fully work in Russia until the expiration date indicated on the card. With them, you can make all the usual operations without restrictions: pay for goods and services, replenish cards and withdraw cash from ATMs, make transfers from card to card.
Cut off by Visa and Mastercard, Russian banks said they will turn to China’s UnionPay. It shows Russia may increasingly rely on China as it gets isolated by the West. https://t.co/qUY8GaSn1P
Putin has also set up an economic commission that plans to nationalize the assets of companies that leave because of the sanctions. It appears that Russia is moving toward China's economic model, as well as a geopolitical alliance with China.
I wonder how the Russian people like this one. I also wonder how Vlad likes it? Seems like with these companies leaving - it will be a big opportunity for his follow oligarchs to take over all the businesses that are leaving.
Visa and Mastercard temporarily stop working in Russia
As explained in the Bank of Russia and the National System of Payment Cards, this means that the cards of these systems issued by Russian banks will work in Russia in a normal mode, but will stop working abroad and in foreign online stores, ApplePay and GooglePay.
All Visa and Mastercard cards will fully work in Russia until the expiration date indicated on the card. With them, you can make all the usual operations without restrictions: pay for goods and services, replenish cards and withdraw cash from ATMs, make transfers from card to card.
Putin has also set up an economic commission plans to nationalize the assets of companies that leave because of the sanctions. It appears that Russia is moving toward China's economic model, as well as a geopolitical alliance with China.
Ah - we have confirmation from Maria Butina that Russia is NOT bombing civilian targets - Ukrainians are:
“We have tons of evidence that the Russia army does not touch, does not bomb civilian populations,” Butina said in explaining the absurd bit of Putin propaganda
I'm sure Paul can follow up with his sources, Mate - Greenwald?
I don't see why UN officials and Western media don't ask to observe the evacuation routes that have been agreed, in particular in Mariupol. I also don't get why the Ukraine govt objects to refugees going to Russia temporarily.
On the matter of civilian targets, I don't doubt that the Russian military has hit civilian targets, but the scale of civilian casualties indicates that they aren't targeting civilians. The UN estimates about 400 killed in the first two weeks (doesn't specify whether by Ukraine or Russia). US forces killed over 4,000 Iraqi civilians in the first two weeks of that war. And we weren't targeting civilians.
So I'm pushing back on the mantra that the Russian's are "targeting civilians" or "firing indiscriminately". However, I'm not pushing back on the more important fact that starting a war is the supreme war crime. And Putin and his security committee, like Bush and his security committee, are guilty of that crime. Both belong in the International Criminal Court. See statement by antiwar former Army Colonel and diplomat Ann Wright.
There are also war crimes taking place at this very moment in Yemen, where the scale of death is far greater than in Ukraine and maybe Iraq (377,000 in Yemen by the end of 2021). Saudi prince MBS and his cronies -- as well as their US and European enablers, also belong in the dock.
The only reason most of you (not all) are upset with my referencing these other theaters of death is because you've never been inundated with media narratives about them that come anywhere close to what's taking place with Ukraine.
Postscript: Most of the media I've watched has shown bombed-out buildings over the commentary of "Russia targeting civilians" or "Russian indiscriminate bombing". One should not assume that those visuals and commentaries match. A rate exception to this sort of coverage appears in today's NY Times in an excellent article on the "softening" of Russian and Ukrainian positions in advance of today's meeting with the foreign ministers of Ukraine and Russia. Note the caption -->
I wonder how the Russian people like this one. I also wonder how Vlad likes it? Seems like with these companies leaving - it will be a big opportunity for his follow oligarchs to take over all the businesses that are leaving.
Visa and Mastercard temporarily stop working in Russia
As explained in the Bank of Russia and the National System of Payment Cards, this means that the cards of these systems issued by Russian banks will work in Russia in a normal mode, but will stop working abroad and in foreign online stores, ApplePay and GooglePay.
All Visa and Mastercard cards will fully work in Russia until the expiration date indicated on the card. With them, you can make all the usual operations without restrictions: pay for goods and services, replenish cards and withdraw cash from ATMs, make transfers from card to card.
Putin has also set up an economic commission plans to nationalize the assets of companies that leave because of the sanctions. It appears that Russia is moving toward China's economic model, as well as a geopolitical alliance with China.
When deployed against someone who's already opposed to America's Iraq invasion, it's an even more perplexing strategy. Since you both already agree that the Iraq invasion was wrong, why bring it up in this context? It feels like an attempt to deflect attention away from what's happening right now in Ukraine, which feels like an attempt to shield Russia, which raises doubts as to exactly how opposed to immoral wars the person whabouting is... In short, it raises strong suspicions that the whatabouter is an unreliable source, more committed to a reverse-American exceptionalism than in actually opposing unjustified wars.
On this topic, as on others, I'm your choir. Not that you preach. When commenters preach, I think what counts is not what it feels like but what I can gain from it, so I'm happy to listen to people like Paul without worrying too much about their balance or agreeability or deflection. Give it to me straight, or even whataboutted, and I can sort out what makes sense to me. (With latitude, delightful latitude, to needle them in return.) Because it's not as if I'm trying to persuade them, either.
In short: They're trying to open your eyes to some things. You're trying to open their eyes to some things. All eyes open as they see fit.
As for Paul specifically, I find my share of faults (as you may have noticed, Paul), but nothing he has written on MOL ever made me suspect his professed commitments weren't sincere. Also, I've had the pleasure of chatting with him a few times in person, which often helps in online trust.
This is a fair comment.* If I could make one suggestion to the "choir" -- please consider what it really means to be in a "choir"* and whether that interferes with being able to understand the full picture -- from all sides -- of what's being discussed.
* I enjoyed the chats as well.
Edited to add: This is it for me tonight. Let's hope the foreign ministers' talks make headway later today.
No rebuttal to the French propagandist you were highlighting?
Why do you never comment on the Kremlin control over the media. If you called someone in Russia you would think Vlad is saving the world from the nazis. And assisting those trying to escape them.
You love to focus on our media why ignoring the absolute control of the media by Vlad. Do you ever try looks at Novaya - do you realize why they won the Nobel award recently. Do you stand behind them - or do you think they're spreading western media propaganda. Except now, they can't even use the word war - unless they want to go to jail for up to 15 years. Hopefully the Russian people will rise. But their ability to rise is major suppressed by Vlad's goons. Where is you reporting on the anti-war protests in Russia. I thought this would be higher on your list as a peace guy.
The only reason most of you (not all) are upset with my referencing these other theaters of death is because you've never been inundated with media narratives about them that come anywhere close to what's taking place with Ukraine.
That's not it at all. You've been told why. You have no response so you just insult.
Now this is getting clearer - the US is developing bio-weapons in Ukraine. The same bioweapons the nazis are currently trying to get their hands on. Interesting that the bioweapons can target certain ethnic groups:
American laboratories in Ukraine have been developing bioagents capable of infecting certain ethnic groups, said Igor Kirillov, head of the radiation, chemical and biological defense forces (RCBZ) of the Russian Armed Forces.“
The available documents confirm numerous cases of the transfer of biological samples of Ukrainian citizens abroad. With a high degree of probability, we can say that one of the tasks of the United States and its allies is the creation of bioagents capable of selectively affecting various ethnic groups of the population,” he said.
This is probably one of the most interesting articles: It really details what Russia see as the state of their country after their "Special operation". They're accepted and will be embracing their isolation from the world. Who needs the Western companies who have infiltrated the society.
There is no way back. Should those who fled from Russia be allowed back?
On February 24, a new era began in the world, but more importantly, a new era began in the life of Russia. The country is getting rid of not only illusions about the West: it is freed from Western influence, even more broadly - from alienation, imitation, cringing and dependence on foreigners (primarily ideological and spiritual). This is our chronic disease, it has been in the active phase since the 18th century: we either fell seriously ill with it, or almost recovered. Now we have a unique chance to get immunity, to become self-sufficient, because we ourselves took a step that the West could only respond with an attempt to expel us from the world community. We have no right to miss this chance.
At the same time, self-sufficiency and the rejection of servility have nothing to do with pride and hatred, chauvinism, isolationism and xenophobia. We know very well that a lot of things are not arranged in our country and in many respects we are now lagging behind technologically. We are not the smartest, not the most beautiful, not the strongest and richest, but we are independently thinking, knowing our history and our national code, living by our moral principles and believing in our ideals. We are a unique Orthodox-Eurasian civilization, just like, for example, the Chinese civilization. Uniqueness is not an indulgence and not a reason, but only the awareness of it gives confidence in one's abilities, gives rise to responsibility to ancestors and descendants.
Now this is getting clearer - the US is developing bio-weapons in Ukraine. The same bioweapons the nazis are currently trying to get their hands on. Interesting that the bioweapons can target certain ethnic groups:
American laboratories in Ukraine have been developing bioagents capable of infecting certain ethnic groups, said Igor Kirillov, head of the radiation, chemical and biological defense forces (RCBZ) of the Russian Armed Forces.“
The available documents confirm numerous cases of the transfer of biological samples of Ukrainian citizens abroad. With a high degree of probability, we can say that one of the tasks of the United States and its allies is the creation of bioagents capable of selectively affecting various ethnic groups of the population,” he said.
That's just the plot of the most recent Bond film.
In Crimea, they announced an American spy among the negotiators from Ukraine
“Three rounds of talks have passed in Belarus. But the presence of a Crimean Tatar and my namesake, deputy of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine, Rustem Umerov, could not escape my attention in the negotiating group of Kiev. I have every reason to consider him a US spy and a gray cardinal associated with a fugitive opposition Turkish preacher Fethullah Gülen," Umerov told RIA Novosti .
In his opinion, the task of Rustem Umerov is to prevent the parties from quickly agreeing and to inform the heads of the US intelligence services as much as possible .
but….. it’s three of them…