What does Putin want (and whatabout it)

paulsurovell said:

...

Alternatively -- I told you so.

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/ukraine/talks-could-have-ended-war-ukraine

Still, the claim that the West forced Ukraine to back out of the talks with Russia is baseless. It suggests that Kyiv had no say in the matter. 

...

And then there is the Russian side of the story, which is difficult to assess. Was the whole negotiation a well-orchestrated charade, or was Moscow seriously interested in a settlement? ...

I recall it differently, that it was adamantly argued that Boris and Biden were responsible and that Putin was all-in.

But if this is your "I told you so", who am I to judge?


The article is pretty clear that there were a lot of reasons why the tentative framework (to which had been added Russian "poison pill" provisions, even) didn't turn into an agreement ending the war.

And one more thing -

paulsurovell said:

Alternatively -- I told you so.

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/ukraine/talks-could-have-ended-war-ukraine

The Talks That Could Have Ended the War in Ukraine

A Hidden History of Diplomacy That Came Up Short—but Holds Lessons for Future Negotiations

By Samuel Charap and Sergey Radchenko

April 16, 2024

...

Finally, the retreat set the stage for the gruesome discovery of atrocities that Russian forces had committed in the Kyiv suburbs of Bucha and Irpin, where they had raped, mutilated, and murdered civilians.

Reports from Bucha began to make headlines in early April. On April 4, Zelensky visited the town. The next day, he spoke to the UN Security Council via video and accused Russia of perpetrating war crimes in Bucha, comparing Russian forces to the Islamic State terrorist group (also known as ISIS). Zelensky called for the UN Security Council to expel Russia, a permanent member.

...

Zelensky was also unquestionably outraged by the Russian atrocities at Bucha and Irpin, and he probably understood that what he began to refer to as Russia’s “genocide” in Ukraine would make diplomacy with Moscow even more politically fraught. 

So, can it be agreed that it's not naive to reject a claim that the Bucha atrocities are like a "Gulf of Tonkin", "babies in incubators" fake promoted "by those who wanted war to dissuade those who wanted a peaceful settlement"?


What's that screenshot from? Is it from that Musk thing -- Y or Zed or whatever that website he bought is called? Is that thing still around?


PVW said:

What's that screenshot from? Is it from that Musk thing -- Y or Zed or whatever that website he bought is called? Is that thing still around?

Yes, the Musk vehicle.


nohero said:

I cannot think of any respectable commentator who has nothing but respect for the views and work of Professor Timothy Snyder, author of "On Tyranny".

[Edited to add] 

Respectable here = mainstream propaganda.    I can think of many respectable commentators--the kind of people who practice real journalism that speaks truth to power -- who don't look up to this guy.  I would love to see him in an interview with those people but that never happens.  And then there are the "elite" Yale students in the video that never question anything he says.  Was that a pre-selected class or do they normally just nod their heads and agree all the time. Yale students are protesting about Israel now, so they can't all be that passive.  And he says some really controversial stuff that should be obvious to anyone with a basic knowledge of the conflict.

For example, he's a major voice for those that like to deny that Ukraine has a Nazi problem:

https://www.nybooks.com/online/2014/03/01/ukraine-haze-propaganda/

Even Congress was concerned enough about the Ukraine Nazi problem that they were considering a funding ban.  And fun fact: Ukraine has more statues for killers of Jews than any other country.  

https://thegrayzone.com/2018/04/07/the-us-is-arming-and-assisting-neo-nazis-in-ukraine-while-congress-debates-prohibition/

Excerpt from link above:

At the time, supporters of the NATO-inspired coup painted any and all reports of the presence of neo-Nazis in post-Maidan Ukraine as Kremlin propaganda. Jamie Kirchick, a neoconservative operative, made the most obtuse attempt at spinning the fascist surge in Ukraine, erasing militias like Azov as “Putin’s Imaginary Nazis.” Liberal historian Timothy Snyder also dismissed the problem of neo-Nazism in Ukraine, defending the Maidan putsch as “a classic popular revolution.”

But it was not long before the wave of Nazi nostalgia and anti-Semitism sweeping across the country became impossible to deny. In Ukraine’s parliament, the veteran fascist Social-National Party founder Andriy Parubiy has risen to the role of Speaker. Vadym Troyan, a leader of Biletsky’s neo-Nazi Patriot of Ukraine organization who served as a deputy commander of Azov, was appointed police chief of the province of Kiev.

Massive torchlit rallies pour out into the streets of Kiev on regular occasions, showcasing columns of Azov members marching beneath the Nazi-inspired Wolfsangel banner that serves as the militia’s symbol. Author and columnist Lev Golinkin noted that the neo-Nazis who violently paraded through Charlottesville, Virginia last year bore flags emblazoned with the another symbol displayed by Azov: the Sonnengrad, or Nazi SS-inspired black sun.
. . . Last May, Azov supporters held a torchlit rally in Lviv, in honor of General Roman Shukhevych, the late commander of the UPA insurgent militia that helped massacre thousands of Jews in Lviv. (Ironically, the massacre has been documented in detail by Timothy Snyder, the historian-turned-apologist for Ukraine’s government).

Two months later — on the anniversary of the pogrom — the city of Lviv held “Shukhevychfest,” celebrating the blood stained general as a “successful musician, an athlete, a businessman.” During the festival, neo-Nazis tossed a molotov cocktail into a local synagogue and vandalized the Jewish house of worship with graffiti reading, “Yids, remember July 1 [the date of the Lviv massacre].

”The explosion of pro-Nazi memorials across Ukraine has provoked harsh condemnation from the World Jewish Congress and prompted anti-Nazi activist Efraim Zuroff to openly lament that “Ukraine has more statues for killers of Jews than any other country.” But even as Ukraine’s Jewish community reels at the developments in horror, the US government has been mostly silent.


jamie said:

nan said:

You can't move on can you?  

The story about the rural area soldiers being sent more than the ones from the cities is probably about Ukraine.  I saw a story about that somewhere.  They said the vans which were snatching people took too much from their village and hardly any in the city. There were some interviews.  Something I've noticed is that whatever the Ukraine press says about Russians is usually about them.  That's where they get the idea.  

You will never believe there are/were Nazis in Ukraine or that Russia actually had some reasons to invade--that it was not unprovoked.  

As I said before, I'm not doing your nutihomework anymore and that includes providing translations.  

what on earth are u talking about?  This was is about nazis-just provide the results after 2 years of this special operation.  Where are the Nazis- how many have been eradicated- who is their current leader- how many are left?  Point to the Putin speech where he discusses the progress.  It shouldn’t be that hard.

Check out my last post for the baseline Nazi count. 


nohero said:

nan said:

The war is about Ukraine not declaring neutrality and demilitarizing Ukraine (and the West as a unforeseen bonus).  It was an existential threat to Russia.  Not a land grab -- 

-- except for, you know, the land that was grabbed.

As for it being Ukraine's own fault for being invaded instead of "declaring neutrality" - Remember back when it was a "manufactured crisis" to think that Putin would actually invade Ukraine?

That was a surprise and as we now know, he was pushing for peace from the get go.  Someone else wanted a full scale war and did everything it could to fan the flames of war. How do you turn back when your enemy is arming a proxy army against you and refuses to negotiate? 


I'm trying to understand all of this.  We wanted a full-scale war which Putin conveniently started yet we weren't prepared to give Ukraine the support they need to fight Putin to a stalemate.


tjohn said:

I'm trying to understand all of this.  We wanted a full-scale war which Putin conveniently started yet we weren't prepared to give Ukraine the support they need to fight Putin to a stalemate.

Obviously Putin is a CIA plant.


PVW said:

tjohn said:

I'm trying to understand all of this.  We wanted a full-scale war which Putin conveniently started yet we weren't prepared to give Ukraine the support they need to fight Putin to a stalemate.

Obviously Putin is a CIA plant.

Well, that would actually make some sense.  Nobody else has been able to light a fire under NATO the way Putin has.


Has anyone weakened Russia more than Putin has? He's clearly running the George. W. Bush playbook for blowing up your country's strength and credibility.


tjohn said:

I'm trying to understand all of this.  We wanted a full-scale war which Putin conveniently started yet we weren't prepared to give Ukraine the support they need to fight Putin to a stalemate.

You're getting warm.  Except we are prepared to give Ukraine the support they need--we just don't have it.  This is the problem with neocons--they think it's going to be so easy. 


PVW said:

tjohn said:

I'm trying to understand all of this.  We wanted a full-scale war which Putin conveniently started yet we weren't prepared to give Ukraine the support they need to fight Putin to a stalemate.

Obviously Putin is a CIA plant.

Obviously Putin is not a CIA plant.  That was the problem.  That's why they wanted Nalvalney.  He was a CIA plant. 


tjohn said:

PVW said:

tjohn said:

I'm trying to understand all of this.  We wanted a full-scale war which Putin conveniently started yet we weren't prepared to give Ukraine the support they need to fight Putin to a stalemate.

Obviously Putin is a CIA plant.

Well, that would actually make some sense.  Nobody else has been able to light a fire under NATO the way Putin has.

Yes, they create a cartoon of Putin as Hitler and lots of people fall for it and there goes our tax money for another wasted effort. Forget about healthcare or education or even a decent road or bridge.  


PVW said:

Has anyone weakened Russia more than Putin has? He's clearly running the George. W. Bush playbook for blowing up your country's strength and credibility.

Yeah, 6% growth and lots of new friends and admirers around the globe. A leader in the new multipolar world.  Who would want that?  

Meanwhile we are clearly running the Roman Empire collapse playbook and you seem to think somehow we are winning. 


nan said:

Meanwhile we are clearly running the Roman Empire collapse playbook and you seem to think somehow we are winning.

I think you’re the only commenter in this thread who has said anybody has won anything. (I’m not counting Paul’s “I told you so.”)


DaveSchmidt said:

nan said:

Meanwhile we are clearly running the Roman Empire collapse playbook and you seem to think somehow we are winning.

I think you’re the only commenter in this thread who has said anybody has won anything. (I’m not counting Paul’s “I told you so.”)

I'm speaking in general about the whole American Exception point of view that underscores every PVW post. And if PVW thinks Ukraine has lost this war, I'd like to hear it said.  If you can't see they have lost, you think they can win.  Otherwise why would you endorse the continued pointless carnage?


nan said:

  Otherwise why would you endorse the continued pointless carnage?

Because that is how wars work.  WW II was over 3 years before the fighting stopped.

Yet another thing Putin should have considered before starting the war.


tjohn said:

nan said:

  Otherwise why would you endorse the continued pointless carnage?

Because that is how wars work.  WW II was over 3 years before the fighting stopped.

Yet another thing Putin should have considered before starting the war.

That might be how some wars go, but YOU don't have to support that.  The Ukraine slogan has been "as long as it takes."  That's the blank check strategy and we have other blank check wars going on as well.  Putin's not the only one who should have thought about some other things before getting involved in this war. 


nan said:

That might be how some wars go, but YOU don't have to support that.  

So if you’re attacked you just roll over?

In case you just crawled out from under a rock, ALL wars go like that!! One side attack and one defend. People are killed. Buildings are destroyed, graves are dug. People will weep, and people will pick up arms to defend themselves. I would think an academic education would at least help you with the confusion. People have been explaining this to you for a couple of years now and you’re still stuck in that pile of Russian horsesiht. 


Jaytee said:

nan said:

That might be how some wars go, but YOU don't have to support that.  

So if you’re attacked you just roll over?

In case you just crawled out from under a rock, ALL wars go like that!! One side attack and one defend. People are killed. Buildings are destroyed, graves are dug. People will weep, and people will pick up arms to defend themselves. I would think an academic education would at least help you with the confusion. People have been explaining this to you for a couple of years now and you’re still stuck in that pile of Russian horsesiht. 

So if you are losing--big time--you just keep on letting all the citizens die?  Maybe in an election year you do, but that's not what happens in all wars.  Most wars end in either surrender and/or some type of negotiation.  I'm not the one lacking education here.

Do you think the Ukrainians can win this thing?  

Even last fall it was obvious they can't.  Don't you think it's time to stop the carnage?

Zelensky: TIME may be on his side, but real time, isn't

Official Ukraine narrative collapses as Zelensky’s inner circle admits to magazine that the war cannot be won militarily.

https://responsiblestatecraft.org/zelensky-war-time-magazine/

Here is an excerpt specifically about troop morale.  Sounds like maybe Project Ukraine's biggest supporters are not in Ukraine:

Staggering casualties have decimated the Ukrainian army. Ukraine has refused to disclose casualty counts throughout the war, dismissing the increasingly-credible reports of hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian casualties as Russian propaganda. But another close aide to Zelensky tells Shuster that casualties are so horrific that “even if the U.S. and its allies come through with all the weapons they have pledged, ‘we don’t have the men to use them.’” Shuster reports that, “In some branches of the military, the shortage of personnel has become even more dire than the deficit in arms and ammunition.” According to the article, the average age of a currently-serving Ukrainian soldier is 43 and getting older all the time. It appears the youth have already been sacrificed.

Conscription policies are draconian. Another fact dismissed as a “Putin talking point” is that Ukrainians have had to resort to ever-more draconian conscription policies to replenish their military’s ranks. Shuster lays out the unpleasant reality: “New recruitment is way down. As conscription efforts have intensified across the country, stories are spreading on social media of draft officers pulling men off trains and buses and sending them to the front. Those with means sometimes bribe their way out of service, often by paying for a medical exemption.” The corruption became so widespread that Zelensky fired the heads of all the regional draft offices in August, but the move backfired as lack of leadership brought new recruitment nearly to a halt.


nan said:

DaveSchmidt said:

nan said:

Meanwhile we are clearly running the Roman Empire collapse playbook and you seem to think somehow we are winning.

I think you’re the only commenter in this thread who has said anybody has won anything. (I’m not counting Paul’s “I told you so.”)

I'm speaking in general about the whole American Exception point of view that underscores every PVW post. And if PVW thinks Ukraine has lost this war, I'd like to hear it said.  If you can't see they have lost, you think they can win.  Otherwise why would you endorse the continued pointless carnage?

https://maplewood.worldwebs.com/forums/discussion/what-does-putin-want-and-whatbout-it?page=next&limit=11910#discussion-replies-3619290

Also, I'm curious what you mean by saying my posts are underscored by American Exception. I think that's the exact opposite of what I've been saying, so I'm really not sure what you mean.


nan said:

nohero said:

I cannot think of any respectable commentator who has nothing but respect for the views and work of Professor Timothy Snyder, author of "On Tyranny".

[Edited to add] 

Respectable here = mainstream propaganda.    I can think of many respectable commentators--the kind of people who practice real journalism that speaks truth to power -- who don't look up to this guy.  I would love to see him in an interview with those people but that never happens.  And then there are the "elite" Yale students in the video that never question anything he says.  Was that a pre-selected class or do they normally just nod their heads and agree all the time. Yale students are protesting about Israel now, so they can't all be that passive.  And he says some really controversial stuff that should be obvious to anyone with a basic knowledge of the conflict.

For example, he's a major voice for those that like to deny that Ukraine has a Nazi problem:

https://www.nybooks.com/online/2014/03/01/ukraine-haze-propaganda/

When Professor Snyder was once again brought up on this thread, I didn't realize that it was "Hate On Timothy Snyder Week" in anti-Ukraine circles. Professor Snyder was a witness in a congressional hearing on China's authoritarianism, and Majorie Taylor Greene went after him over Ukraine.

There are videos from numerous sources, but here's a quick thread from the Twitter with a summary and a clip - worth clicking and reading the couple of tweets in the thread. 


nan said:

Obviously Putin is not a CIA plant.  That was the problem.  That's why they wanted Nalvalney.  He was a CIA plant. 

If Navalny is working for the CIA, you have to admire his commitment to the bit.


nan said:

Putin's not the only one who should have thought about some other things before getting involved in this war.

So: Here we have Putin “getting involved” in this war.


nohero said:

nan said:

nohero said:

I cannot think of any respectable commentator who has nothing but respect for the views and work of Professor Timothy Snyder, author of "On Tyranny".

[Edited to add] 

Respectable here = mainstream propaganda.    I can think of many respectable commentators--the kind of people who practice real journalism that speaks truth to power -- who don't look up to this guy.  I would love to see him in an interview with those people but that never happens.  And then there are the "elite" Yale students in the video that never question anything he says.  Was that a pre-selected class or do they normally just nod their heads and agree all the time. Yale students are protesting about Israel now, so they can't all be that passive.  And he says some really controversial stuff that should be obvious to anyone with a basic knowledge of the conflict.

For example, he's a major voice for those that like to deny that Ukraine has a Nazi problem:

https://www.nybooks.com/online/2014/03/01/ukraine-haze-propaganda/

When Professor Snyder was once again brought up on this thread, I didn't realize that it was "Hate On Timothy Snyder Week" in anti-Ukraine circles. Professor Snyder was a witness in a congressional hearing on China's authoritarianism, and Majorie Taylor Greene went after him over Ukraine.

There are videos from numerous sources, but here's a quick thread from the Twitter with a summary and a clip - worth clicking and reading the couple of tweets in the thread. 

oh look!

nan and MTG arguing the same point of view.

what a surprise.

not.


nan said:


For example, he's a major voice for those that like to deny that Ukraine has a Nazi problem:

https://www.nybooks.com/online/2014/03/01/ukraine-haze-propaganda/

I didn't realize you were a New York Review of Books subscriber -- I assume you must be, to have read the article? Do they have an option for a guest link and, if so, would you mind sharing so all of us can read the article as well?


PVW said:

nan said:


For example, he's a major voice for those that like to deny that Ukraine has a Nazi problem:

https://www.nybooks.com/online/2014/03/01/ukraine-haze-propaganda/

I didn't realize you were a New York Review of Books subscriber -- I assume you must be, to have read the article? Do they have an option for a guest link and, if so, would you mind sharing so all of us can read the article as well?

I'm able to see the whole article, but I'm not a paid subscriber. I am on their mailing list however. Maybe that's it.


PVW said:

Do they have an option for a guest link and, if so, would you mind sharing so all of us can read the article as well?

There’s no specific gift link, but see if this works


nohero said:

nan said:

nohero said:

I cannot think of any respectable commentator who has nothing but respect for the views and work of Professor Timothy Snyder, author of "On Tyranny".

[Edited to add] 

Respectable here = mainstream propaganda.    I can think of many respectable commentators--the kind of people who practice real journalism that speaks truth to power -- who don't look up to this guy.  I would love to see him in an interview with those people but that never happens.  And then there are the "elite" Yale students in the video that never question anything he says.  Was that a pre-selected class or do they normally just nod their heads and agree all the time. Yale students are protesting about Israel now, so they can't all be that passive.  And he says some really controversial stuff that should be obvious to anyone with a basic knowledge of the conflict.

For example, he's a major voice for those that like to deny that Ukraine has a Nazi problem:

https://www.nybooks.com/online/2014/03/01/ukraine-haze-propaganda/

When Professor Snyder was once again brought up on this thread, I didn't realize that it was "Hate On Timothy Snyder Week" in anti-Ukraine circles. Professor Snyder was a witness in a congressional hearing on China's authoritarianism, and Majorie Taylor Greene went after him over Ukraine.

There are videos from numerous sources, but here's a quick thread from the Twitter with a summary and a clip - worth clicking and reading the couple of tweets in the thread. 

Right on cue!  We have Timothy Snyder doing what was quoted in the article I posted:

". . . Last May, Azov supporters held a torchlit rally in Lviv, in honor of General Roman Shukhevych, the late commander of the UPA insurgent militia that helped massacre thousands of Jews in Lviv. (Ironically, the massacre has been documented in detail by Timothy Snyder, the historian-turned-apologist for Ukraine’s government)."

He's citing that 3% figure, which has been discussed in this thread before.  They have 3% but their influence is much bigger because they are well organized thugs and have no problem resorting to violence.  Snyder also mischaracterizes Russia.  He really is a propaganda puppet, and MTG is an easy mark.  Wish she had asked him why Ukraine has so many monuments to Nazi figures and why Congress wanted to ban funding to Ukraine over the Nazi issue.  


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