Pope Francis, Catholics, and Christians in the news worldwide
Wasn’t it the Romans who crucified Jesus? Christianity wasn’t an organized religion until a few hundred years after his crucifixion. I’m confused as to how Jesus started the Catholic Church. I won’t get into religious debates, because I have found that the entire topic is based on blind faith and hearsay. Religion has killed more people than it has saved.
carry on….
nohero said:
Do you have a preferred translation?
I grew up with the KJV so that is what seems the most "authentic" to my ear. My girlfriend in college was a Classics minor and they would translate passages from the Gospels around the holidays. The multitude of ways in which a single line could be translated was a real eye opener.
The common view of the Bible in English as a single canonical text is problematic in the extreme. That said, some versions are more problematic than others.
Jaytee said:
Wasn’t it the Romans who crucified Jesus? Christianity wasn’t an organized religion until a few hundred years after his crucifixion.
Well, Nero was using "Christians" as torches for the Games in the 60s so they must have been a thing by then. From what we know about the period, those "Christians" would have borne very little resemblance to modern Catholics, however.
GoSlugs said:
nohero said:
Do you have a preferred translation?
I grew up with the KJV so that is what seems the most "authentic" to my ear. My girlfriend in college was a Classics minor and they would translate passages from the Gospels around the holidays. The multitude of ways in which a single line could be translated was a real eye opener.
The common view of the Bible in English as a single canonical text is problematic in the extreme. That said, some versions are more problematic than others.
The English translation used for liturgy in the U.S. is called the New American Bible. Other English-speaking countries use the Jerusalem Bible in the liturgy. The Jerusalem Bible is also "authentic" for use in the U.S.
Trivia - J.R.R. Tolkien was one of the translators who worked on the Jerusalem Bible, and in particular the Book of Jonah is primarily his work.
nohero said:
The English translation used for liturgy in the U.S. is called the New American Bible. Other English-speaking countries use the Jerusalem Bible in the liturgy. The Jerusalem Bible is also "authentic" for use in the U.S.
Trivia - J.R.R. Tolkien was one of the translators who worked on the Jerusalem Bible, and in particular the Book of Jonah is primarily his work.
Do you know what she is pasting from? It seems to be so unnecessarily clunky in its language.
nohero said:
Trivia - J.R.R. Tolkien was one of the translators who worked on the Jerusalem Bible, and in particular the Book of Jonah is primarily his work.
He should have thrown in some Elves. I think that would have spiced things up a bit.
GoSlugs said:
Well, Nero was using "Christians" as torches for the Games in the 60s so they must have been a thing by then. From what we know about the period, those "Christians" would have borne very little resemblance to modern Catholics, however.
There are many similarities, however, with respect to the early teachings and the gatherings.
There's a writing called the "Didache" that dates from that time, or relatively close to that time, which describes how the early communities conducted themselves - including with prayers (the "Our Father") and liturgical celebrations (the Eucharist).
GoSlugs said:
nohero said:
The English translation used for liturgy in the U.S. is called the New American Bible. Other English-speaking countries use the Jerusalem Bible in the liturgy. The Jerusalem Bible is also "authentic" for use in the U.S.
Trivia - J.R.R. Tolkien was one of the translators who worked on the Jerusalem Bible, and in particular the Book of Jonah is primarily his work.
Do you know what she is pasting from? It seems to be so unnecessarily clunky in its language.
If it's clunky, it's probably the New American translation. Seriously.
nohero said:
There are many similarities, however, with respect to the early teachings and the gatherings.
There's a writing called the "Didache" that dates from that time, or relatively close to that time, which describes how the early communities conducted themselves - including with prayers (the "Our Father") and liturgical celebrations (the Eucharist).
Right, but I don't think there was much back then that would have marked people as uniquely Catholic (as opposed to Orthodox) in that time. A lot of the practices of the early Christians ended up getting banned as heretical in the 3rd Century. The degree of Papal supremacy was hotly debated right through the 10th Century.
GoSlugs, there’s a roster of readings published by the Vatican and easily accessible simply by asking ‘today’s gospel reading? Catholic Church’ you’ll get all the references etc with it. Also added notes for the global region you’re in.
Sone parishes will post this roster on their home sites for easy use of parishioners and Sunday School teachers.
Orthodox do the same for their parishioners, in both Greek and English. (Or Russian, or Romanian, Croatian etc and English)
No-one seems to have noted Pope Francis has been hospitalised.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/mar/29/pope-francis-taken-hospital-respiratory-infection
GoSlugs said:
Right, but I don't think there was much back then that would have marked people as uniquely Catholic (as opposed to Orthodox) in that time. A lot of the practices of the early Christians ended up getting banned as heretical in the 3rd Century. The degree of Papal supremacy was hotly debated right through the 10th Century.
Right. There was no "Catholic-Orthodox" division at that time. The practices in the Didache are common to what we think of today as "Catholic" or "Orthodox".
joanne said:
No-one seems to have noted Pope Francis has been hospitalised.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/mar/29/pope-francis-taken-hospital-respiratory-infection
Oh no. My thoughts are with him.
Edited to clarify: My real thoughts, not the kind of thoughts and prayers that conservatives promise when they are telling the victims of gun violence to go to hell. I typed the above and was instantly horrified to see how insincerely it read. What is wrong with this world?
joanne said:
GoSlugs, there’s a roster of readings published by the Vatican and easily accessible simply by asking ‘today’s gospel reading? Catholic Church’ you’ll get all the references etc with it. Also added notes for the global region you’re in.
In the U.S., you can find them on the bishops conference website -
joanne said:
No-one seems to have noted Pope Francis has been hospitalised.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/mar/29/pope-francis-taken-hospital-respiratory-infection
Yes, "even the New York Times" sent that news out in its afternoon update.
nohero said:
Right. There was no "Catholic-Orthodox" division at that time. The practices in the Didache are common to what we think of today as "Catholic" or "Orthodox".
And that is the lens through which I viewed Mr Sheen's absurd claim that "the Catholic Church is the only Church existing today which goes back to the time of Christ."
Clearly, the Orthodox Church has also been in existence for just as long. I suspect a number of other churches can make similar claims. Obviously, not the Lutherans or the LDS, but a number of churches.
mtierney said:
2,000 years later, the church preservers and goes forward…
Churches, more accurately.
At this point, a bigger person would admit that the quote from Mr. Sheen was a lie.
We will see what mtierney does but I am not holding my breath. Still, she might surprise me.
GoSlugs said:
mtierney said:
2,000 years later, the church preservers and goes forward…
Churches, more accurately.
At this point, a bigger person would admit that the quote from Mr. Sheen was a lie.
We will see what mtierney does but I am not holding my breath. Still, she might surprise me.
As with so many things, especially quotes, context matters.
The Sheen quote is taken from a longer piece, which in turn us a preface to a book mostly about presenting the Catholic Church in contrast to American Protestantism.
https://thecathedral.info/fulton-sheen/
In other news: the Church moves slowly, but the “Doctrine of Discovery” is repudiated.
“In no uncertain terms, the Church’s magisterium upholds the respect due to every human being. The Catholic Church therefore repudiates those concepts that fail to recognize the inherent human rights of indigenous peoples, including what has become known as the legal and political “doctrine of discovery’.”
https://press.vatican.va/content/salastampa/it/bollettino/pubblico/2023/03/30/0238/00515.html
nohero said:
As with so many things, especially quotes, context matters.
The Sheen quote is taken from a longer piece, which in turn us a preface to a book mostly about presenting the Catholic Church in contrast to American Protestantism.
https://thecathedral.info/fulton-sheen/
Well, I certainly have never read any of Mr Sheen's work outside of the many quotes posted here.
So, something like "of this short and limited list of Churches, the Catholic Church is the only one that has been around since the beginning"?
I suppose that would absolve Mr. Sheen but do you think mtierney knew about this context? If she did, one wonders why she didn't clarify her quote when I pointed out it's obvious flaws (when the necessary context has not been provided).
nohero said:
In other news: the Church moves slowly, but the “Doctrine of Discovery” is repudiated.
“In no uncertain terms, the Church’s magisterium upholds the respect due to every human being. The Catholic Church therefore repudiates those concepts that fail to recognize the inherent human rights of indigenous peoples, including what has become known as the legal and political “doctrine of discovery’.”
https://press.vatican.va/content/salastampa/it/bollettino/pubblico/2023/03/30/0238/00515.html
I was happy to see this but there certainly are a lot of "ifs" and "buts" in it. To claim that the Church as a body had no part in this massive Evil is to strain credulity.
GoSlugs said:
nohero said:
In other news: the Church moves slowly, but the “Doctrine of Discovery” is repudiated.
“In no uncertain terms, the Church’s magisterium upholds the respect due to every human being. The Catholic Church therefore repudiates those concepts that fail to recognize the inherent human rights of indigenous peoples, including what has become known as the legal and political “doctrine of discovery’.”
https://press.vatican.va/content/salastampa/it/bollettino/pubblico/2023/03/30/0238/00515.html
I was happy to see this but there certainly are a lot of "ifs" and "buts" in it. To claim that the Church as a body had no part in this massive Evil is to strain credulity.
I think it’s important in that it knocks out a support relied on by “Christian Nationalism” and white supremacy.
nohero said:
I think it’s important in that it knocks out a support relied on by “Christian Nationalism” and white supremacy.
Definitely important and a move in the right direction.
When I was younger, I would not have imagined that the Catholic Church would routinely be one of the rare sources of good news and progress in the world.
What a dystopia we live in.
I mean, you could see why that kind of talk would bother Jews.
If someone had said something similarly heretical to medieval Christians they would have been lucky if getting burned at the stake was the worse thing that happened to them.
Aliens arrive on earth and they meet with all the world leaders. Eventually they get to meet the Pope.
Greeting them he asks "So, What do you think of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ?”
One of the Alien exclaims, “Ah, JC! He’s my boy! We have a massive party when he visits us once a year!” “He visits you once a year?”
The Pope asks in astonishment. “He hasn’t been to earth in more than two millennia! How did you manage that?!”
“Well," replied the Alien "When he first came to our planet we gave him a box of our finest chocolates. What did you guys do?”
So, what version of the Bible are you taking these snippets from?