Pope Francis, Catholics, and Christians in the news worldwide
PVW said:
Side-stepping the theological questions entirely, two things I find interesting about the flood story is that flood stories exist in many traditions, and there were some mega-floods as the last ice-age ended that could conceivably have been witnessed by people, which raises the always interesting to me question about just how far stories and oral tradition go.
I think it has more to do with the fact that, as people turned to agriculture, they settled near rivers which tend to flood.
Immanuel Velikovsky wrote some intriguing essays on global floods, synchronicity, mythologies/faith stories etc. Sadly he was pilloried for his trouble. Viewed instead as conversation starters, or thought-provokers -especially in light of more recent research (archeology, philology, anthropology etc), I reckon people could relook at his work.
GoSlugs said:
PVW said:
Side-stepping the theological questions entirely, two things I find interesting about the flood story is that flood stories exist in many traditions, and there were some mega-floods as the last ice-age ended that could conceivably have been witnessed by people, which raises the always interesting to me question about just how far stories and oral tradition go.
I think it has more to do with the fact that, as people turned to agriculture, they settled near rivers which tend to flood.
As the glaciers retreated at the end of the last ice age, there were some enormous floods - enormous enough to make a lasting impression.
PVW said:
Side-stepping the theological questions entirely, two things I find interesting about the flood story is that flood stories exist in many traditions, and there were some mega-floods as the last ice-age ended that could conceivably have been witnessed by people, which raises the always interesting to me question about just how far stories and oral tradition go.
Oral traditions probably have gone back to the time when animal life adapted to living close to the sea, after the seas were lowered due to the ice age. Dolphins still communicate with nature (God) but we have lost our signals, so we clasp our hands and look at the sky for answers…
Wednesday of Holy Week aka Spy Wednesday…
https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/254020/why-is-today-called-spy-wednesday
Why is today called Spy Wednesday?
Judas betrays Jesus with a kiss, 14th-century fresco in the Collegiata of San Gimignano, Italy. | Credit: jorisvo/Shutterstock
CNA Newsroom, Apr 5, 2023 / 03:00 am
You might hear today referred to as “Spy Wednesday.” What does that mean and why do some people call it that?
The name actually derives from the Gospel reading for today — also called Holy Wednesday, as it is the Wednesday of Holy Week — in which Judas Iscariot betrays Jesus for 30 pieces of silver:
“One of the Twelve, who was called Judas Iscariot, went to the chief priests and said, ‘What are you willing to give me if I hand him over to you?’ They paid him thirty pieces of silver, and from that time on he looked for an opportunity to hand him over” (Mt 26:14-16).
At that point, Judas “spies” on Jesus, secretly plotting the most opportune time to turn him in to the Sanhedrin, the council of Jewish elders at the time who sought to condemn Jesus.
Today’s reading follows yesterday’s account of the incident from the Gospel of John, in which Jesus says: “Amen, amen, I say to you, one of you will betray me” (Jn 13:21). Simon Peter asks John — “the one whom Jesus loved” — to ask Jesus what he means. Jesus replies:
“‘It is the one to whom I hand the morsel after I have dipped it.’ So he dipped the morsel and [took it and] handed it to Judas, son of Simon the Iscariot. After he took the morsel, Satan entered him. So Jesus said to him, ‘What you are going to do, do quickly’” (Jn 13:26-27).
Now the stage is set, so to speak, for the events of the night of the Last Supper through the Lord’s passion and death on Good Friday.
Use of the term “Spy Wednesday” for this day appears to have originated in England and Ireland in the 1800s, according to WordHistories.net. The website noted mentions of the term in Irish newspapers on several occasions throughout the century, with a clear definition given in 1881.
Pope Francis referred to the day as Spy Wednesday in his homily at a Mass on April 8, 2020.
Many use this day to discuss Judas’ betrayal, asking how and whysomeone who was so close to Jesus could do what he did.
“Judas gave up everything to follow Jesus for three years … Why would he betray him?” asked Dr. Edward Sri in a March 2021 podcast. “Perhaps a more important question we should all ponder is: Could something like that ever happen to me? Is it possible that I could turn away from Jesus?”
Bishop Robert Barron observed in an April 4 reflection: “Those of us who regularly gather around the table of intimacy with Christ and yet engage consistently in the works of darkness are meant to see ourselves in the betrayer.”
In his general audience catechesis on the Twelve Apostles in 2006, the late Pope Benedict XVI said God used Judas’ betrayal as part of his plan for salvation.
“The word ‘to betray’ is the version of a Greek word that means ‘to consign.’ Sometimes the subject is even God in person: It was he who for love ‘consigned’ Jesus for all of us (Rm 8: 32). In his mysterious salvific plan, God assumes Judas’ inexcusable gesture as the occasion for the total gift of the Son for the redemption of the world,” the pope said.
“We draw from this a final lesson,” Benedict concluded. “While there is no lack of unworthy and traitorous Christians in the Church, it is up to each of us to counterbalance the evil done by them with our clear witness to Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior.”
GoSlugs said:
I think it has more to do with the fact that, as people turned to agriculture, they settled near rivers which tend to flood.
Agreed that's far more likely. Still, when one tries to imagine what something like the Black Sea outburst flood or creation of the Channeled Scablands in North America might have looked like, the idea of human witnesses to such events adds something I think.
That said, although we know that many oral traditions have often turned out to be far more reliable than previously believed, we'd still be talking thousands of years between the events and known stories, so that does stretch credulity. We talk about the Roman Empire as ancient, but that's just two millennia, whereas the distance between the Black Sea outburst flood and when the book of Genesis was written down is seven millennia. The vast bulk of human history is staggeringly distant, and while I like the romantic notion that some stories have carried on from that time, I'll admit it's not very likely.
nohero said:
What I'm saying is that God didn't have to choose that as part of the plan, unlike the suggestion that it had to be that way.
What was the alternative (from a Christian POV)? I'm guessing either destroying humanity (again) or allowing humanity to live in sin without any hope of redemption?
I suppose a third choice would be to restrict free will and limit people to living in a manner that precluded violating the 10 Commandments. The doctrine of Original Sin would be problematic there but (I may be wrong here), that is a later invention.
GoSlugs said:
nohero said:
What I'm saying is that God didn't have to choose that as part of the plan, unlike the suggestion that it had to be that way.
What was the alternative (from a Christian POV)? I'm guessing either destroying humanity (again) or allowing humanity to live in sin without any hope of redemption?
I suppose a third choice would be to restrict free will and limit people to living in a manner that precluded violating the 10 Commandments. The doctrine of Original Sin would be problematic there but (I may be wrong here), that is a later invention.
What's the alternative? Who knows? We're not living in that timeline.
nohero said:
GoSlugs said:
nohero said:
What I'm saying is that God didn't have to choose that as part of the plan, unlike the suggestion that it had to be that way.
What was the alternative (from a Christian POV)? I'm guessing either destroying humanity (again) or allowing humanity to live in sin without any hope of redemption?
I suppose a third choice would be to restrict free will and limit people to living in a manner that precluded violating the 10 Commandments. The doctrine of Original Sin would be problematic there but (I may be wrong here), that is a later invention.
What's the alternative? Who knows? We're not living in that timeline.
Do you think mtierney and "christians" like her share this view?
ETA: and thank you for sharing it with me. It doesn't feel like there is much actual discussion of religion on this thread, so its fun to dip into it.
GoSlugs said:
nohero said:
GoSlugs said:
What was the alternative (from a Christian POV)? I'm guessing either destroying humanity (again) or allowing humanity to live in sin without any hope of redemption?
I suppose a third choice would be to restrict free will and limit people to living in a manner that precluded violating the 10 Commandments. The doctrine of Original Sin would be problematic there but (I may be wrong here), that is a later invention.
What's the alternative? Who knows? We're not living in that timeline.
Do you think mtierney and "christians" like her share this view?
ETA: and thank you for sharing it with me. It doesn't feel like there is much actual discussion of religion on this thread, so its fun to dip into it.
I have no reason to think that "mtierney and christians like her" would disagree with that.
Some short excerpts that may or may not give you more guidance on the Catholic approach -
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church: "Through an utterly free decision, God has revealed himself and given himself to man. This he does by revealing the mystery, his plan of loving goodness, formed from all eternity in Christ, for the benefit of all men. God has fully revealed this plan by sending us his beloved Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit."
From Catholic writer Heidi Schlumpf, writing in the magazine "U.S. Catholic" about the Mel Gibson "Passion of the Christ" movie -
Filmmaker Gibson clearly favors what’s often called “substitution,” “satisfaction,” or “ransom” atonement theology, which says Jesus’ blood is payment to God for human sin. In this theory, since the penalty for sin is death, Jesus pays humanity’s debt, restoring us to God’s favor and winning for us eternal life. Some argue this portrays the Christian God as disturbingly similar to gods who demanded human sacrifice to appease their anger. It raises the question: What kind of God requires such horrific suffering and torture in a plan for divine justice?
Not any kind of God most people want to believe in, nor one that sounds like Jesus’ God of love, says Jesuit Father Kenneth Overberg, professor of theology at St. Xavier University and author of Into the Abyss of Suffering (St. Anthony Messenger Press). “If we sift through the layers to try to understand Jesus’ sense of God, it’s simply not a vindictive, punishing, angry, cruel God,” he says.
Jesus did die a horrible death, most likely because his preaching and teaching upset the powers-that-be of his day. “But I certainly wouldn’t say that was God’s plan,” says Overberg. “The important part isn’t that Jesus died, it’s that he lived. I suggest we focus on Jesus’ life, not his death. Jesus came to live, not to die. He had to die because he was human. But I’m convinced he didn’t have to die the way he did.”
Emphasis added.
And from an article in The Jesuit Post -
But some models of salvation are not helpful and can have a deep impact on our images of God and our understanding of how we relate to God. One such model, which continues to be prevalent in our thinking, is the penal substitution model. Gerald O’Collins, SJ, summarizes it like this: “Christ was a penal substitute who was personally burdened with the sins of humanity, judged, condemned, and deservedly punished in our place. Thus through his death he satisfied the divine justice, paid the required price, and propitiated an angry God.” Basically, Jesus was the sacrificial offering who bore all of our sins and died to appease an angry God.
This is not a helpful image of God. The penal substitution model portrays a vengeful God tracking our offenses and demanding recompense. Living out of this image impacts how we relate to God: we can become consumed by guilt and fear before God, like he’s a highway patrol officer waiting to catch us doing something wrong, throw us in prison, and punish us.
But the image of God from the parable of the prodigal son (Luke 15:11-32), for example, portrays a very different God: a God who is loving and who shows abundant mercy. Rather than demanding recompense, the merciful father in the parable embraces and kisses his son and celebrates his return with a feast. It’s a drastically different image of God than the penal substitution model.
Apparently a new documentary on Pope Francis just launched on Disney+ today, and from this article, I might have to watch it.
After being driven to a working-class neighborhood in Rome, the young people, a mix of Catholics, Christians, agnostics, atheists and a Muslim, asked the pope if he has a salary (no), a cellphone (no) and what he thinks about young people meeting romantic partners on Tinder.
"It's normal," he said. "Young people have that eagerness to meet each other, and that's very good."
In a conversation on pornography and masturbation opened by a young woman who says she creates adult content, the pope said that "expressing yourself sexually is a richness," but that "everything that diminishes real sexual expression diminishes you too, it makes you partial, and it impoverishes that richness."
The pope warned against labeling all sexual activity as "ugly" and said the church's "catechesis on sex is still in diapers."
"Christians haven't always had a mature catechesis on sex," he added.
Asked by a self-described nonbinary person about the treatment of LGBTQ people in the church, Francis said people who use the Gospel to sow hate "live to condemn others because they don't know how to ask forgiveness for their own faults."
"I don't have the right to cast anyone out from the church," said the pope, referring to members of the LGBTQ community. "My job is to receive, always."
Since I was a child In Catholic school I asked questions and could never get a reasonable answer for them. Every response was a quote from the Bible.
One of my questions was, if the only way for someone to get to heaven was accepting Jesus as their savior, then heaven was not open for business prior to his arrival in earth? What about the Hindus who were practicing their religion for thousands of years? No Hindus in heaven? Was hell at full capacity before those three wise men saw that light in the sky? Then when I was about 14 years old, I read a book called “the beginning was the end”…and I stopped asking people for answers.
Jaytee said:
Then when I was about 14 years old, I read a book called “the beginning was the end”…and I stopped asking people for answers.
yikes
When I was 14 I read this: https://harekrishnabooks.com/product/perfect-questions-perfect-answers/
I have little issues with the way normal Jewish practice is portrayed in the gospel stories, and taken as absolute truth. For example, it’s widely accepted that the Last Supper is a Seder (Passover meal) and the day’s prior activities seem to confirm this. So, the ‘morsel’ Jesus hands Judas is one of the pre-meal exemplars to be blessed and explained: matzah, bitter herb, charoseth etc. We know this because in the verse from John quoted above (on Spy Wednesday) it says Jesus dipped and passed the morsel.
The host dips into salty water all these items (except matzah) and passes them individually to everyone present. So the remark is nonsensical. If Judas were meant to pass the morsel to his neighbouring diner, that apostle wouldn’t want to accept it from the now-revealed traitor, and the peaceful dinner is totally ruined. The alternative phrasing, he who has his hand in the dish with mine, is just as nonsensical as in the old Sephardic custom with large bowl for communal dining, several diners would ‘dip’ or take their meal portions at the same time.
Weird, political translations. Possibly unreliable primary resources.
On the theme of flood myths, Japan not having any gave root to the Shinto belief that Japan was the nearest place to heaven.
joanne said:
I have little issues with the way normal Jewish practice is portrayed in the gospel stories, and taken as absolute truth. For example, it’s widely accepted that the Last Supper is a Seder (Passover meal) and the day’s prior activities seem to confirm this. So, the ‘morsel’ Jesus hands Judas is one of the pre-meal exemplars to be blessed and explained: matzah, bitter herb, charoseth etc. We know this because in the verse from John quoted above (on Spy Wednesday) it says Jesus dipped and passed the morsel.
The host dips into salty water all these items (except matzah) and passes them individually to everyone present. So the remark is nonsensical. If Judas were meant to pass the morsel to his neighbouring diner, that apostle wouldn’t want to accept it from the now-revealed traitor, and the peaceful dinner is totally ruined. The alternative phrasing, he who has his hand in the dish with mine, is just as nonsensical as in the old Sephardic custom with large bowl for communal dining, several diners would ‘dip’ or take their meal portions at the same time.
Weird, political translations. Possibly unreliable primary resources.
This reading for Holy Thursday is for Joanne, specifically. our biblical resource.
Mtierney, thank you. You might not realise that this reading indicates that Jesus and the apostles had visited a mikveh (ritual bath) before visiting the Temple, with Peter’s general remarks about bathing.
Now I’m not sure exactly but the other comment he makes regarding washing his hands, and his head, as well as his feet, strike me as being particularly detailed. This might be further indication that Peter came from a cohenite (priestly) family, as they have extra traditions to fulfil on festive days whether at Temple/synagogue or at home. Or it may be a reference to the extent of Peter’s belief in Jesus: Temple visitors would wash face, hands & feet at a great fountain in the outer courtyard before proceeding to prayer.
In my family, for Seders my sister and girl cousins would carry a large basin, a jug of water and a towel around to all the guests at the table. It was very formal, starting with the eldest Uncle, then the most prominent male guest, then all all the men etc then all the women, then the kids…the trailing (assisting) girl would supply fresh towels and jugs, and empty the basin. (There are several points throughout the family service where one says a blessing & washes hands before handling food) I felt soooo grown up when I got to carry the bowl and towel!! A year or two later, everyone started trooping to the kitchen sink!
Note: ‘al netilat yadayim’ is not performed with soap or scrubbing motions, it’s a light rinsing of hands in flowing water. Your hands must be clean before you perform washing-for-blessing-Gd.
Joanne, All these comments have me thinking that what’s lacking worldwide are respect and “TRADITION!” (That Broadway musical song me planning to ask Alexa this afternoon to play that score!)
OK, I confess, can’t remember the play’s name, but I can hum the score!
Edited to add: “FIDDLER ON THE ROOF” !
I really need to chat with Father R, my Greek Orthodox friend. The more I think about the timing of these events the more I’m puzzled by the accounts.
We’re told the Romans wanted to arrest Jesus on the night of festival or during the festival but worried that might cause a revolt (too many people in town for the festival, which goes for a week). Yet we’re given all these indications that Jesus and apostles prepared properly and visited the Temple, returned to their digs, ate a Seder dinner complete with leaning to the left and with dipping the special veg and blessing hand-washing during the meal… and Jesus is still arrested during that big week.
Why do I keep insisting it’s a Seder? The accounts keep telling us they reclined while at dinner. Ordinary people didn’t do that; no painting shows that. Rich Romans and rich Egyptians did that - at Seder, we lean/slouch to the left to dine like kings, showing we’re free, not slaves, and we take our time. (You try drinking while leaning to the left!!)
So: was it Seder or not??? Who asked the Four Questions? Who found the Afikomen? (Simon Peter??)
joanne said:
I really need to chat with Father R, my Greek Orthodox friend. The more I think about the timing of these events the more I’m puzzled by the accounts.
We’re told the Romans wanted to arrest Jesus on the night of festival or during the festival but worried that might cause a revolt (too many people in town for the festival, which goes for a week). Yet we’re given all these indications that Jesus and apostles prepared properly and visited the Temple, returned to their digs, ate a Seder dinner complete with leaning to the left and with dipping the special veg and blessing hand-washing during the meal… and Jesus is still arrested during that big week.
They didn't want to arrest Jesus in public, so they waited until they could find him alone at night. It had already been a disruptive week, with Jesus having a very public entry into the city days earlier. Plus, there was already at least one insurrectionist scheduled to be crucified the next day (Barabbas), indicating that there had already been some sort of violence taking place that the Romans had to put down.
No wonder Pilate's wife had bad dreams.
Didn’t Jesus die before the Passover holiday had formally begun? I seem to remember reading something to that effect somewhere.
Jaytee said:
Didn’t Jesus die before the Passover holiday had formally begun? I seem to remember reading something to that effect somewhere.
Have no fear, there’s an answer. “Mark, Matthew, and Luke all affirm that Jesus was brought to Pilate the day after the initial Passover meal on 15 Nisan, the night on which the lamb was eaten and the Haggadah (or Passover liturgy) was recited (Matt. 26:17; Mark 14:12; Luke 22:7). But in John 18:28 it seems Jesus was brought before Pilate on the day before the initial Passover meal was eaten, for John says the Jews who led Jesus to Pilate didn’t enter the praetorium ‘so that they might not be defiled, but might eat the Passover.’”
The whole discussion at this link: https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/the-timing-of-jesus-trial
nohero said:
Have no fear, there’s an answer. “Mark, Matthew, and Luke all affirm that Jesus was brought to Pilate the day after the initial Passover meal on 15 Nisan, the night on which the lamb was eaten and the Haggadah (or Passover liturgy) was recited (Matt. 26:17; Mark 14:12; Luke 22:7). But in John 18:28 it seems Jesus was brought before Pilate on the day before the initial Passover meal was eaten, for John says the Jews who led Jesus to Pilate didn’t enter the praetorium ‘so that they might not be defiled, but might eat the Passover.’”
The whole discussion at this link: https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/the-timing-of-jesus-trial
This will go on for eternity, it’s all hearsay.
When all we have is “he said, he said” from some couple of thousand years ago it makes for good debates…I am imagining if the Republican Party lasts another few hundred years they might be erecting statues of Trumpenstein.
Some might even claim his father was an honest carpenter who built homes for the poor in the metropolis of Gotham, and his mother was a virgin. Republicans then will regard him as the savior who was betrayed by a woman who was in the sex business… and a black man who prosecuted him and nailed him to the cross just before Passover.
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Side-stepping the theological questions entirely, two things I find interesting about the flood story is that flood stories exist in many traditions, and there were some mega-floods as the last ice-age ended that could conceivably have been witnessed by people, which raises the always interesting to me question about just how far stories and oral tradition go.