January 6, 2021 on MOL
I'm just saying that sometimes it's nice staying on topic then going on a libertarian whataboutism tangent. Are you saying that you can't do anything different and that I have to restrain your hijacking tendencies?
Trump gave a speech - his followers reacted. Then you take us to Yarvin and Yemen.
jamie said:
I'm just saying that sometimes it's nice staying on topic then going on a libertarian whataboutism tangent. Are you saying that you can't do anything different and that I have to restrain your hijacking tendencies?
Trump gave a speech - his followers reacted. Then you take us to Yarvin and Yemen.
to show what credulous and immoral sheep the rest of us are.
DaveSchmidt said:
See, we’re OK with deadly weapons in the hands of the police state, but not in the hands of the people.
You're a lot better than I am at detecting the sarcastic subtext.
nohero said:
Is that where all the "Cathedral rubric" stuff comes from?
I interrupt myself reading this thread to say that the so-called "Cathedral" is what is more properly called "The Ruling Class".
terp said:
Speaking of Yarvin, here's his take on yesterday's events. While I wouldn't necessarily agree with every word, in effect I think he nails this pretty well.
Here's an excerpt. It tells you who this guy really is.
Some of the “peaceful protesters” were packing. The deceased woman was part of a small group trying to break into one of the chambers. Terrified Congresspersons, many of whom are octogenarians with Alzheimer’s and/or syphilis, were still within.
nohero said:
Maybe she wants her money back since this Revolution Vacation didn't turn out to her liking.
I thought that the revolution would not be televised. 
terp said:
sprout said:
The Republican and Democratic parties share the goal of remaining a top 'super-power' in the pecking order of countries. If you have a better way of getting them to move towards compassion and empathy in their approach, I'd be happy to hear it.
But, I don't think that's your goal. If I understand correctly, you believe America should drop its international 'super-power' status and stay out of all international affairs?
I was right there with you protesting the Iraq war, sadly in vain. What happened to the left the last 12 years?
You keep asking "why aren't you discussing this??", but then when asked about international conflict in general, don't answer whether you think the US should try to:
- maintain super-power status, but approach international affairs from a standpoint of more compassion and empathy?
- drop our international 'super-power' status and stay out of all international affairs?
My perspective:
- #1 may be doable, but is much less profitable than war, so has tended to lose in our current capitalist system.
- #2 is political suicide, so is not generally an option mentioned by politicians.
The Left was quite loud about the US involvement in the Palestinian-Israeli conflict for a while. But the approach options were manipulated to divide Progressives, and recruit Jews to the Republican party. International conflict is complicated by the many ongoing political and financial maneuvers. It takes tremendous PR and a unified voice to make any movement on any international conflict or oppression.
In the past year, the unified voice and PR has focused on our internal conflict/oppression (use of force and incarceration) against our own people.
To bring this back to Trump -- he has used this internal challenge to push the right and left further apart to increase conflict rather than solve it.
STANV said:
Here's an excerpt. It tells you who this guy really is.
It told me that Yarvin is a guy whose sarcastic subtext is made for social media.
The racist, hustler, con man that far too many of you voted for told thousands of white folks to storm the Capitol yesterday. They did, and people died.
Today he's still the President.
What the ****?
His social media accounts have been suspended- that's it. No posting for him. He upended the government of the most powerful nation on the planet- and his punishment is that he can't post on Facebook. The rioters stole souvenirs, then filed out, picked up pizza and some brewskis then made their way back to Holiday Inn. This afternoon they'll gas up the truck and head back to West Arkanwhereeverthefukc and post selfies with the cops who didn't arrest them.
Your President meanwhile is free to do whatever the hell else he wants for the next couple of weeks including dismantling CR legislation and possibly pardoning some more of his syndicate- and you're here arguing about the merits of some mumbly-**** pseudo-intellectual bullsiht that has nothing to do with reality.
I have no doubt that just about everyone who posts on MOL is outraged by bombing civilians in foreign countries and causing starvation and the death of children. As for most of yesterday's "protestors" I am not so sure. Certainly their "hero" doesn't give a wit.
If people opposed to the invasion of Iraq attempted to storm the Capitol to prevent Congress from voting to support that invasion they would have been stopped by massive police force before they got anywhere near the Capitol steps and if any actually breached the building they would have been shot almost immediately.
flimbro said:
The racist, hustler, con man that far too many of you voted for told thousands of white folks to storm the Capitol yesterday.
Wrong audience.
I agree with the rest of your post.
This reaction really stuck with me yesterday from Joy Reid:
STANV said:
flimbro said:
The racist, hustler, con man that far too many of you voted for told thousands of white folks to storm the Capitol yesterday.
Wrong audience.
I agree with the rest of your post.
Nope. Absolutely the right audience. Own it. Be accountable. All of this bullsiht was created and is maintained for your benefit- whether you cop to being a beneficiary or not.
This is the culmination of decades of liberal/progressive ‘oh no, you’re not talking about me are you?!’. Well, I am. Where are all the pink hats now? Where’s the outrage? As long as you think you can observe from the sidelines and skirt responsibility this will continue. You think these hucklebucks are going to disappear- they’re not. New leaders are already queuing up to assume leadership and they count on well-meaning white folks being ‘enraged’ and ‘furious’ and inert- because they know that in the end they enjoy the benefits.
DaveSchmidt said:
Right audience, inclusive.
flimbro said:
Nope. Absolutely the right audience. Own it. Be accountable. All of this bullsiht was created and is maintained for your benefit- whether you cop to being a beneficiary or not.
"far too many of you"
The people reading this do not include "too many" who voted for Trump.
Whatever benefit I receive because of my race, ethnicity, gender, etc. I received when Obama was President as well as during Trump's regime. You and I do not know each other. I am about as accountable as I can be.
If I'm going to claim the capitol as a symbol I get to be outraged over, then
STANV said:
DaveSchmidt said:
Right audience, inclusive.
flimbro said:
Nope. Absolutely the right audience. Own it. Be accountable. All of this bullsiht was created and is maintained for your benefit- whether you cop to being a beneficiary or not.
"far too many of you"
The people reading this do not include "too many" who voted for Trump.
Whatever benefit I receive because of my race, ethnicity, gender, etc. I received when Obama was President as well as during Trump's regime. You and I do not know each other. I am about as accountable as I can be.
No, he's right. "where are the plans for restructuring the lives of the beneficiaries" of white privilege remains a damn good one, for which I remain without an answer.
sprout said:
terp said:
sprout said:
The Republican and Democratic parties share the goal of remaining a top 'super-power' in the pecking order of countries. If you have a better way of getting them to move towards compassion and empathy in their approach, I'd be happy to hear it.
But, I don't think that's your goal. If I understand correctly, you believe America should drop its international 'super-power' status and stay out of all international affairs?
I was right there with you protesting the Iraq war, sadly in vain. What happened to the left the last 12 years?
You keep asking "why aren't you discussing this??", but then when asked about international conflict in general, don't answer whether you think the US should try to:
- maintain super-power status, but approach international affairs from a standpoint of more compassion and empathy?
- drop our international 'super-power' status and stay out of all international affairs?
My perspective:
- #1 may be doable, but is much less profitable than war, so has tended to lose in our current capitalist system.
- #2 is political suicide, so is not generally an option mentioned by politicians.
The Left was quite loud about the US involvement in the Palestinian-Israeli conflict for a while. But the approach options were manipulated to divide Progressives, and recruit Jews to the Republican party. International conflict is complicated by the many ongoing political and financial maneuvers. It takes tremendous PR and a unified voice to make any movement on any international conflict or oppression.
In the past year, the unified voice and PR has focused on our internal conflict/oppression (use of force and incarceration) against our own people.
To bring this back to Trump -- he has used this internal challenge to push the right and left further apart to increase conflict rather than solve it.
Apologies for the oversight. Militarily we should come home. We have over 800 bases worldwide. What constituency does that serve? We make matters worse wherever we get involved. We should be trading with these countries, not bombing them.
The antiwar movement lost much of the left the moment Obama became president. Now Biden is adding war hawks and neocons to his administration. Good times...
terp said:
Apologies for the oversight. Militarily we should come home. We have over 800 bases worldwide. What constituency does that serve? We make matters worse wherever we get involved. We should be trading with these countries, not bombing them.
The antiwar movement lost much of the left the moment Obama became president. Now Biden is adding war hawks and neocons to his administration. Good times...
That doesn't answer the question. Yes, sure, bring the military home. But does this mean our future approach should be:
- maintain super-power status, but approach international affairs from a standpoint of more compassion and empathy?
- drop our international 'super-power' status and stay out of all international affairs?
There's a lot of things that I strongly disagree with that won't change regardless of who becomes president. The idea that I should therefore ignore the important things that will change is one I can't follow. Though I suppose an alternative view is that nothing that will change actually is important, which is an entirely different disagreement.
sprout said:
terp said:
Apologies for the oversight. Militarily we should come home. We have over 800 bases worldwide. What constituency does that serve? We make matters worse wherever we get involved. We should be trading with these countries, not bombing them.
The antiwar movement lost much of the left the moment Obama became president. Now Biden is adding war hawks and neocons to his administration. Good times...
That doesn't answer the question. Yes, sure, bring the military home. But does this mean our future approach should be:
- maintain super-power status, but approach international affairs from a standpoint of more compassion and empathy?
- drop our international 'super-power' status and stay out of all international affairs?
It depends on what you mean by super power. If you mean be a military super power that uses threats of violence(and actual violence) to persuade, we should drop that status. If you mean maintain our economic strength and persuade and lead by example because people want to trade with us, I'm ok with the latter.
Alas, we are a pretty hollow economic power that requires our military might to hold us up economically, we probably need to build our economic strength to actually achieve that. Not too many people have the appetite for this program.
terp said:
Alas, we are a pretty hollow economic power that requires our military might to hold us up economically, we probably need to build our economic strength to actually achieve that. Not too many people have the appetite for this program.
Perhaps that answers your question around why removing the US military presence elsewhere is not a more popular discussion.
STANV said:
DaveSchmidt said:
Right audience, inclusive.
flimbro said:
Nope. Absolutely the right audience. Own it. Be accountable. All of this bullsiht was created and is maintained for your benefit- whether you cop to being a beneficiary or not.
"far too many of you"
The people reading this do not include "too many" who voted for Trump.
Whatever benefit I receive because of my race, ethnicity, gender, etc. I received when Obama was President as well as during Trump's regime. You and I do not know each other. I am about as accountable as I can be.
If the people reading this are white people then it certainly does include "too many". We've long had a political environment that allows white folks, especially liberals to opt-out without opting out. They're allowed to separate themselves from 'real racists' claiming differences in political affiliation, geography, economics, or education- and still enjoy the benefits derived from the work of those 'real racists'. The bottom line is that the social structure that Trump and his army are fighting for is your social structure. It's a system of white supremacy that reifies the white privilege that you employ in your everyday lives. The hillbillies who ran amok yesterday are fighting to be you. They'll never claim it because Trump tells them that you're the elitist enemy. He has to- ignorant, desperate people need a bogeyman, and whenever Black folks don't fit the bill, elitist white folks who read will do just fine.
I'm not sure why Obama stands out in your mind but needless to say, you've received this benefit from every American president because all of them are charged with maintaining white supremacy- especially Obama.
Everyone else with actual skin in the game makes better decisions that actually hew closer to the idea of democracy white folks claim to love so much. Black folks take part in a political system that has never had their best interests at heart and they still participate in unprecedented numbers. And post-election they continue to advocate for an America that we all claim to want- that only seems to exist on paper. We can make the commitment, why can't white folks? To me the answer is simple- you don't have to. Because at the end of the day your life doesn't change appreciably whether the president is Trump, Biden, or Hawley.
That's why it's so easy for terp to roll out his traveling sideshow of disconnected hoo-ha to distract you from having a conversation that even approaches any aspect of accountability. For those who shirk from acknowledging any part in this madness, any conversation is preferable to one that involves personal responsibility and/or sacrifice.
You're right I don't know you. I don't know any of you. But I see the results of your work and if you are in fact 'as accountable as you can be'- then you should really try harder because it's not working.
PVW said:
STANV said:
DaveSchmidt said:
Right audience, inclusive.
flimbro said:
Nope. Absolutely the right audience. Own it. Be accountable. All of this bullsiht was created and is maintained for your benefit- whether you cop to being a beneficiary or not.
"far too many of you"
The people reading this do not include "too many" who voted for Trump.
Whatever benefit I receive because of my race, ethnicity, gender, etc. I received when Obama was President as well as during Trump's regime. You and I do not know each other. I am about as accountable as I can be.
If I'm going to claim the capitol as a symbol I get to be outraged over, then
No, he's right. "where are the plans for restructuring the lives of the beneficiaries" of white privilege remains a damn good one, for which I remain without an answer.
flimbro said:
The racist, hustler, con man that far too many of you voted for told thousands of white folks to storm the Capitol yesterday.
Why do I have to keep defending the point that the people reading this did not vote for the said "racist, hustler, con man".
Many of the Trump base include those who march around shouting "Jews will not replace us" and do not consider me "White".
I have done what little I could to combat racism and militarism and will continue to try and will take any suggestions.
I may be off-base, or only touching a tiny corner of the bigger issue, but here's my feeling from today.
I am seeing expressions of outrage to yesterday's events along the lines of "I can't believe this is happening! The rules I (we) previously assumed to be a foundation of our society, turn out have pretty big proportions of people in power (and their supporters) who consider it OK to bend or ignore them!" Which seems a very White and privileged reaction to this instance with limited impact on their everyday lives.
If I was Black or Brown, I might look at the liberal White people having this surprise/shock reaction, like, "Wait... so you didn't really understand that this is how I experience my everyday life?" (...but with more direct impacts).
STANV said:
Why do I have to keep defending the point that the people reading this did not vote for the said "racist, hustler, con man".
You don't have to keep defending it. Instead, you can read "you" as "you white folks," a straight-up inference without bringing "you MOLers" into it, and continue from there.
My man, obviously, it's not just voting. But you know that right?
The woman who lost her life yesterday believed in white supremacy especially the part that told her that she had a right to do whatever she wanted- whenever she wanted to do it. White supremacy fueled her trip to DC, white privilege pushed her up the steps of Capitol and ushered her through the doors past police, white privilege clouded her common sense as she attempted to climb through a window to gain access to an area where real unadulterated white privilege worked to maintain the economic, gender and class distinctions that kept her on the other side of that window in the first place. She died.
I feel for her. She had been lied to for a long, long time and it sunk in.
Late last night listening to CNN I heard Cuomo dismiss the idea of removing Trump from office immediately via impeachment because 'he's going to be gone on the 20th anyway, so what difference would it make'? That's a comment from someone with privilege who doesn't have skin in the game. Maybe Ms. Babbitt listened to her President earlier during the day when he asked all gathered to go to the Capitol. Maybe she thought he meant her. Maybe she thought he knew something she didn't about climbing through broken windows inside a federal building.
Now Cuomo certainly didn't vote for Trump, but he's fine with allowing him to wreak havoc for another couple of weeks- because, at the end of the day, it doesn't affect him. Maybe Ms. Babbitt would be alive today if other liberals had worked harder to remove Trump last year or the year before. But they didn't, they relied on voting and the system, and in the end, it just really didn't make much of a difference to them either way.
So, relying on the system in place or voting is not the solution. It's what you demand of your government, yourself, and anyone else who enjoys the spoils of a racist, exclusionary society.
If you didn't like what you saw yesterday then devise a plan to fix it. If what you saw sticks in your craw then change it. Don't ask for suggestions- do the work yourself. Like I said- all of this is being done for your benefit- it's your system and if it makes you uncomfortable then change it.
Gaslighting phony releases another video this evening. — Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) January 8, 2021
Reported this evening - An officer who was trying to keep the Trump rioters out of the Capitol has died as a result of yesterday's outrage.
You own the board. Go nuts.