January 6, 2021 on MOL
sprout said:
cramer said:
Robert Johnson, the founder of BET and the first African-American billionaire, proposes to pay $14 trillion to the Black descendents of the slave trade.
For reference: The $800,000 per eligible Black household approach is expected to have a total budget of around $10-$12 trillion.
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/08/12/slavery-reparations-cost-us-government-10-to-12-trillion.html
I'm currently reading The Warmth of Other Suns: The Epic Story of America's Great Migration, by Isabel Wilkerson. I highly recommend it.
ridski said:
Lego's all over this one.
"10,621 pieces" Which is one more than they need ...
cramer said:
sprout said:
cramer said:
Robert Johnson, the founder of BET and the first African-American billionaire, proposes to pay $14 trillion to the Black descendents of the slave trade.
For reference: The $800,000 per eligible Black household approach is expected to have a total budget of around $10-$12 trillion.
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/08/12/slavery-reparations-cost-us-government-10-to-12-trillion.html
I'm currently reading The Warmth of Other Suns: The Epic Story of America's Great Migration, by Isabel Wilkerson. I highly recommend it.
+1 on this. I read it a few years back and also highly recommend it.
PVW - My wife is currently reading Caste, by Isbael Wilkerson. I'll read it after she's finished with it.
cramer said:
I'm currently reading The Warmth of Other Suns: The Epic Story of America's Great Migration, by Isabel Wilkerson. I highly recommend it.
From today’s NYT:
“Simply put, my proposition was this: that Black people reverse the Great Migration — the mass migration of millions of African-Americans largely from the rural South to cities primarily in the North and West that spanned from 1916 to 1970. That they return to the states where they had been at or near the majority after the Civil War, and to the states where Black people currently constitute large percentages of the population. In effect, Black people could colonize the states they would have controlled if they had not fled them.”
jimmurphy said:
cramer said:
I'm currently reading The Warmth of Other Suns: The Epic Story of America's Great Migration, by Isabel Wilkerson. I highly recommend it.
From today’s NYT:
“Simply put, my proposition was this: that Black people reverse the Great Migration — the mass migration of millions of African-Americans largely from the rural South to cities primarily in the North and West that spanned from 1916 to 1970. That they return to the states where they had been at or near the majority after the Civil War, and to the states where Black people currently constitute large percentages of the population. In effect, Black people could colonize the states they would have controlled if they had not fled them.”
Bye Chuck. Best of luck. Try to stay within the city limits
Too many guns, too many angry white people without jobs or education or prospects and too much free time
sprout said:
terp said:
sprout said:
terp said:
They are not the same thing at all. The military could all come home with a stroke of a pen. However, to solve the problem of racism the way flimbro seems to see it involves changing what's in every person's heart. It is an intractable problem.
No... it's more similar than you think. With the stroke of a pen, the US could pay reparations.
I don't think you're reading Flimbro's posts if you believe his ultimate goal is to change what's in people's hearts.
So reparations would solve the problem? I'm reading his posts just fine. If you can read them better than I please educate me on what he's proposing.
Perhaps if they were of sufficient size to narrow the wealth gap (https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2020/02/27/examining-the-black-white-wealth-gap/).
Reparations that result in similar wealth to the median White family would provide about $150,000 per Black family. Or address the overall wealth-power difference, and provide an amount to get up to the average White family (which averages the wealthiest White families' ridiculous fortunes) -- resulting in about $800,000 to be provided per Black family. Do you think this could result in a good start for a more level power structure?
I think reparations absolutely would have an impact. Wealth is both a measurement of, and a form of power. To transfer wealth to black Americans would be to quite literally and straightforwardly transfer power.
Thinking of it as a question of "how do you transfer power" helps me clarify some thoughts. I think one of the biggest obstacles to equality is segregation, particularly residential segregation, and I don't really know how I, as an individual, can do much there. But in terms of "how can I change the distribution of power," there are actionable items there.
One example -- I sometimes am involved in interviewing. As part of that process, am I working to be aware of my biases to make sure that I am truly finding a good match for the position? I think diversity less a goal than a metric -- if I look around at my team and everyone looks like me, then I almost certainly have not been exclusively focused on finding the best match. At least, not unless I'm arguing that only people who look like me are the right match for all these positions. Forcing myself to really examine how I'm interviewing, what I define as being the "right" candidate, is actually work. Am I doing that work?
There's lots of places where we actually do find ourselves in positions of gatekeeping and distributing power, even if we don't immediately think of them as such. Can we recognize those situations? When we do, do we commit to the work of thinking seriously about what inequities in the power structure we're simply taking for granted and replicating, and let that be one of the inputs in forming our judgment and action?
terp said:
I'm still waiting to hear what the actionable proposal is.
And we're all still waiting for you to figure it out for yourself.
The reason this is all so confusing and foreign to you and others is that it's never been required of you. If you believe that your lifestyle, beliefs, philosophy, art, religion, science, etc is the default for society you never have to inspect or evaluate those things or entertain the idea that worthwhile information/ideas may come from somewhere else. Additionally, you never have to critically evaluate your role in that society and include self-improvement in any assessment. If you never have to consider your role in the creation of a just society- all you end up doing is repeating your mythology and presenting the requirements for success in your world to everyone else.
You don't think there is a 'solution' to the problem that I'm describing because you've never had to even identify the problem as a problem. For you it's just always been the way things are so deconstructing that reality and removing yourself from the center and assuming accountability along with authorship feels uncomfortable, strange, and threatening.
Asking the people your society holds at arms distance from citizenship for the solution to the problem you've created and maintained is a defensive move designed to stymie any forward motion. You're the architect and the beneficiary- you built this rickety house and it's yours to fix (if you care about fixing it). Asking the people who you suppress and oppress for their ideas on how not to be suppressed and oppressed by you is disingenuous at best.
We are all at a point where the harm created by white supremacy and privilege is on full display and still white folks are confused. For four years your president has run roughshod over every single law and protocol associated with the presidency and for four years white folks wake up in the morning feigning 'surprise' that it's happening. You've been shocked and dismayed and embarrassed and appalled and disheartened but you haven't done one thing to stop him- nothing. That's because when all is said and done you understand that a basic tenet of white privilege and moneyed patriarchy that it creates is that you get to do whatever you can get away with as long as you can get away with it. To the victor go the spoils. Trump won and per the rules he gets to run the table. Even today, white power brokers are unsure what to do about the madman they've unleashed, most preferring to simply let his tenure run it's course.
When pushed to its limits this perspective even includes the people who at any other time would be the dismissed dregs of white society. That's why the capitol building was overrun yesterday. Those hillbillies were fighting back against a movement to steal their country from them. Good white Americans were fighting back against the Black, brown, gay, Jewish, and whatever else hordes who were trying to steal their country by stealing an election. Of course, none of that is true, but that's beside the point- truth has nothing to do with it- it's the imaginary assault on whiteness. They'd had been told that they were under attack and that was enough, so they were allowed to 'breach' a federal building (is it actually a breach if the cops, noting your whiteness, wave you through barricades and hold the door open for you?).
The monster in these details is the reality that considering what you as a white person could possibly do to restructure the violent, unjust society you've created is the thought that you'd have to give something, maybe even everything up. Imagining what the world would be like without "whiteness" and the power it bequeaths is unfathomable because it's the only world most of you have known- and besides, it feels good- right?
That's the nagging conundrum for well-meaning white folks who are offended and truly hurt by the world they see around them. How do you approach the restructuring of a society that both creates and fulfills you without losing part of you? That's not a question that can be answered or a problem that can be solved by Black folks.
It's on you
jimmurphy said:
From today’s NYT:
“Simply put, my proposition was this: that Black people reverse the Great Migration — the mass migration of millions of African-Americans largely from the rural South to cities primarily in the North and West that spanned from 1916 to 1970. That they return to the states where they had been at or near the majority after the Civil War, and to the states where Black people currently constitute large percentages of the population. In effect, Black people could colonize the states they would have controlled if they had not fled them.”
1. He's blaming Black people for the problem.
2. It would turn Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin, etc over to the White Supremacists.
This belongs in the thread about why the NY Times sucks.
Here's a photo of a Trump terrorist carrying police style plastic handcuffs. Why? Planning on taking hostages?
flimbro said:
terp said:
I'm still waiting to hear what the actionable proposal is.
And we're all still waiting for you to figure it out for yourself.
The reason this is all so confusing and foreign to you and others is that it's never been required of you. If you believe that your lifestyle, beliefs, philosophy, art, religion, science, etc is the default for society you never have to inspect or evaluate those things or entertain the idea that worthwhile information/ideas may come from somewhere else. Additionally, you never have to critically evaluate your role in that society and include self-improvement in any assessment. If you never have to consider your role in the creation of a just society- all you end up doing is repeating your mythology and presenting the requirements for success in your world to everyone else.
You don't think there is a 'solution' to the problem that I'm describing because you've never had to even identify the problem as a problem. For you it's just always been the way things are so deconstructing that reality and removing yourself from the center and assuming accountability along with authorship feels uncomfortable, strange, and threatening.
Asking the people your society holds at arms distance from citizenship for the solution to the problem you've created and maintained is a defensive move designed to stymie any forward motion. You're the architect and the beneficiary- you built this rickety house and if it's yours to fix (if you care about fixing it). Asking the people who you suppress and oppress for their ideas on how not to be suppressed and oppressed by you is disingenuous at best.
We are all at a point where the harm created by white supremacy and privilege is on full display and still white folks are confused. For four years your president has run roughshod over every single law and protocol associated with the presidency and for four years white folks wake up in the morning feigning 'surprise' that it's happening. You've been shocked and dismayed and embarrassed and appalled and disheartened but you haven't done one thing to stop him- nothing. That's because when all is said and done you understand that a basic tenet of white privilege and moneyed patriarchy that it creates is that you get to do whatever you can get away with as long as you can get away with it. To the victor go the spoils. Trump won and per the rules he gets to run the table. Even today, white power brokers are unsure what to do about the madman they've unleashed, most preferring to simply let his tenure run it's course.
When pushed to its limits this perspective even includes the people who at any other time would be the dismissed dregs of white society. That's why the capitol building was overrun yesterday. Those hillbillies were fighting back against a movement to steal their country from them. Good white Americans were fighting back against the Black, brown, gay, Jewish, and whatever else hordes who were trying to steal their country by stealing an election. Of course, none of that is true, but that's beside the point- truth has nothing to do with it- it's the imaginary assault on whiteness. They'd had been told that they were under attack and that was enough, so they were allowed to 'breach' a federal building (is it actually a breach if the cops, noting your whiteness, wave you through barricades and hold the door open for you?).
The monster in these details is the reality that considering what you as a white person could possibly do to restructure the violent, unjust society you've created is the thought that you'd have to give something, maybe even everything up. Imagining what the world would be like without "whiteness" and the power it bequeaths is unfathomable because it's the only world most of you have known- and besides, it feels good- right?
That's the nagging conundrum for well-meaning white folks who are offended and truly hurt by the world they see around them. How do you approach the restructuring of a society that both creates and fulfills you without losing part of you? That's not a question that can be answered or a problem that can be solved by Black folks.
It's on you
"Asking the people who you suppress and oppress for their ideas on how not to be suppressed and oppressed by you is disingenuous at best."
It seems like you're saying you don't want to be involved in whatever may be attempted to make progress. I have a feeling that if a group of well-intentioned white people got together and made some proposals, some in the black community would reject the suggestions out of hand for not having any input from the oppressed. (I do not believe this is an acceptable excuse not to make such proposals.) I think calling it 'disingenuous at best' is over the top.
"It's on you"
Yes, it is. I am confident that there are white people prepared to surrender something in an effort to promote equality. If we're as ignorant as you accuse us of being, how can we possibly make any change for better?
flimbro said:
terp said:
I'm still waiting to hear what the actionable proposal is.
And we're all still waiting for you to figure it out for yourself.
The reason this is all so confusing and foreign to you and others is that it's never been required of you. If you believe that your lifestyle, beliefs, philosophy, art, religion, science, etc is the default for society you never have to inspect or evaluate those things or entertain the idea that worthwhile information/ideas may come from somewhere else. Additionally, you never have to critically evaluate your role in that society and include self-improvement in any assessment. If you never have to consider your role in the creation of a just society- all you end up doing is repeating your mythology and presenting the requirements for success in your world to everyone else.
You don't think there is a 'solution' to the problem that I'm describing because you've never had to even identify the problem as a problem. For you it's just always been the way things are so deconstructing that reality and removing yourself from the center and assuming accountability along with authorship feels uncomfortable, strange, and threatening.
Asking the people your society holds at arms distance from citizenship for the solution to the problem you've created and maintained is a defensive move designed to stymie any forward motion. You're the architect and the beneficiary- you built this rickety house and if it's yours to fix (if you care about fixing it). Asking the people who you suppress and oppress for their ideas on how not to be suppressed and oppressed by you is disingenuous at best.
We are all at a point where the harm created by white supremacy and privilege is on full display and still white folks are confused. For four years your president has run roughshod over every single law and protocol associated with the presidency and for four years white folks wake up in the morning feigning 'surprise' that it's happening. You've been shocked and dismayed and embarrassed and appalled and disheartened but you haven't done one thing to stop him- nothing. That's because when all is said and done you understand that a basic tenet of white privilege and moneyed patriarchy that it creates is that you get to do whatever you can get away with as long as you can get away with it. To the victor go the spoils. Trump won and per the rules he gets to run the table. Even today, white power brokers are unsure what to do about the madman they've unleashed, most preferring to simply let his tenure run it's course.
When pushed to its limits this perspective even includes the people who at any other time would be the dismissed dregs of white society. That's why the capitol building was overrun yesterday. Those hillbillies were fighting back against a movement to steal their country from them. Good white Americans were fighting back against the Black, brown, gay, Jewish, and whatever else hordes who were trying to steal their country by stealing an election. Of course, none of that is true, but that's beside the point- truth has nothing to do with it- it's the imaginary assault on whiteness. They'd had been told that they were under attack and that was enough, so they were allowed to 'breach' a federal building (is it actually a breach if the cops, noting your whiteness, wave you through barricades and hold the door open for you?).
The monster in these details is the reality that considering what you as a white person could possibly do to restructure the violent, unjust society you've created is the thought that you'd have to give something, maybe even everything up. Imagining what the world would be like without "whiteness" and the power it bequeaths is unfathomable because it's the only world most of you have known- and besides, it feels good- right?
That's the nagging conundrum for well-meaning white folks who are offended and truly hurt by the world they see around them. How do you approach the restructuring of a society that both creates and fulfills you without losing part of you? That's not a question that can be answered or a problem that can be solved by Black folks.
It's on you
That's a long and racist way of saying I don't have an effing clue.
Floyd said:
Here's a photo of a Trump terrorist carrying police style plastic handcuffs. Why? Planning on taking hostages?
Really underlines the deadly seriousness of this.
terp said:
flimbro said:
terp said:
I'm still waiting to hear what the actionable proposal is.
And we're all still waiting for you to figure it out for yourself.
The reason this is all so confusing and foreign to you and others is that it's never been required of you. If you believe that your lifestyle, beliefs, philosophy, art, religion, science, etc is the default for society you never have to inspect or evaluate those things or entertain the idea that worthwhile information/ideas may come from somewhere else. Additionally, you never have to critically evaluate your role in that society and include self-improvement in any assessment. If you never have to consider your role in the creation of a just society- all you end up doing is repeating your mythology and presenting the requirements for success in your world to everyone else.
You don't think there is a 'solution' to the problem that I'm describing because you've never had to even identify the problem as a problem. For you it's just always been the way things are so deconstructing that reality and removing yourself from the center and assuming accountability along with authorship feels uncomfortable, strange, and threatening.
Asking the people your society holds at arms distance from citizenship for the solution to the problem you've created and maintained is a defensive move designed to stymie any forward motion. You're the architect and the beneficiary- you built this rickety house and if it's yours to fix (if you care about fixing it). Asking the people who you suppress and oppress for their ideas on how not to be suppressed and oppressed by you is disingenuous at best.
We are all at a point where the harm created by white supremacy and privilege is on full display and still white folks are confused. For four years your president has run roughshod over every single law and protocol associated with the presidency and for four years white folks wake up in the morning feigning 'surprise' that it's happening. You've been shocked and dismayed and embarrassed and appalled and disheartened but you haven't done one thing to stop him- nothing. That's because when all is said and done you understand that a basic tenet of white privilege and moneyed patriarchy that it creates is that you get to do whatever you can get away with as long as you can get away with it. To the victor go the spoils. Trump won and per the rules he gets to run the table. Even today, white power brokers are unsure what to do about the madman they've unleashed, most preferring to simply let his tenure run it's course.
When pushed to its limits this perspective even includes the people who at any other time would be the dismissed dregs of white society. That's why the capitol building was overrun yesterday. Those hillbillies were fighting back against a movement to steal their country from them. Good white Americans were fighting back against the Black, brown, gay, Jewish, and whatever else hordes who were trying to steal their country by stealing an election. Of course, none of that is true, but that's beside the point- truth has nothing to do with it- it's the imaginary assault on whiteness. They'd had been told that they were under attack and that was enough, so they were allowed to 'breach' a federal building (is it actually a breach if the cops, noting your whiteness, wave you through barricades and hold the door open for you?).
The monster in these details is the reality that considering what you as a white person could possibly do to restructure the violent, unjust society you've created is the thought that you'd have to give something, maybe even everything up. Imagining what the world would be like without "whiteness" and the power it bequeaths is unfathomable because it's the only world most of you have known- and besides, it feels good- right?
That's the nagging conundrum for well-meaning white folks who are offended and truly hurt by the world they see around them. How do you approach the restructuring of a society that both creates and fulfills you without losing part of you? That's not a question that can be answered or a problem that can be solved by Black folks.
It's on you
That's a long and racist way of saying I don't have an effing clue.
Pointing out racism isn't racist, but you know that right?
This post is actually a long and accurate way of saying you've been allowed to discuss solutions to a problem of your own creation in the abstract for far too long. It's time you assume responsibility and ownership and accountability for a mess YOU created. It's time for you to address the origin of your racism, why you created the system, and why you're comfortable maintaining the system on a daily basis. And if you're unable to verbalize a reason why this is so difficult for you to do you should try harder.
If you're a repentant serial abuser you're only going to get so far asking the abused for their opinions on how best to stop the abuse.
terp said:
That's a long and racist way of saying I don't have an effing clue.
False accusations of racism, like that, don't belong on this message board.
Red_Barchetta said:
flimbro said:
terp said:
I'm still waiting to hear what the actionable proposal is.
And we're all still waiting for you to figure it out for yourself.
The reason this is all so confusing and foreign to you and others is that it's never been required of you. If you believe that your lifestyle, beliefs, philosophy, art, religion, science, etc is the default for society you never have to inspect or evaluate those things or entertain the idea that worthwhile information/ideas may come from somewhere else. Additionally, you never have to critically evaluate your role in that society and include self-improvement in any assessment. If you never have to consider your role in the creation of a just society- all you end up doing is repeating your mythology and presenting the requirements for success in your world to everyone else.
You don't think there is a 'solution' to the problem that I'm describing because you've never had to even identify the problem as a problem. For you it's just always been the way things are so deconstructing that reality and removing yourself from the center and assuming accountability along with authorship feels uncomfortable, strange, and threatening.
Asking the people your society holds at arms distance from citizenship for the solution to the problem you've created and maintained is a defensive move designed to stymie any forward motion. You're the architect and the beneficiary- you built this rickety house and if it's yours to fix (if you care about fixing it). Asking the people who you suppress and oppress for their ideas on how not to be suppressed and oppressed by you is disingenuous at best.
We are all at a point where the harm created by white supremacy and privilege is on full display and still white folks are confused. For four years your president has run roughshod over every single law and protocol associated with the presidency and for four years white folks wake up in the morning feigning 'surprise' that it's happening. You've been shocked and dismayed and embarrassed and appalled and disheartened but you haven't done one thing to stop him- nothing. That's because when all is said and done you understand that a basic tenet of white privilege and moneyed patriarchy that it creates is that you get to do whatever you can get away with as long as you can get away with it. To the victor go the spoils. Trump won and per the rules he gets to run the table. Even today, white power brokers are unsure what to do about the madman they've unleashed, most preferring to simply let his tenure run it's course.
When pushed to its limits this perspective even includes the people who at any other time would be the dismissed dregs of white society. That's why the capitol building was overrun yesterday. Those hillbillies were fighting back against a movement to steal their country from them. Good white Americans were fighting back against the Black, brown, gay, Jewish, and whatever else hordes who were trying to steal their country by stealing an election. Of course, none of that is true, but that's beside the point- truth has nothing to do with it- it's the imaginary assault on whiteness. They'd had been told that they were under attack and that was enough, so they were allowed to 'breach' a federal building (is it actually a breach if the cops, noting your whiteness, wave you through barricades and hold the door open for you?).
The monster in these details is the reality that considering what you as a white person could possibly do to restructure the violent, unjust society you've created is the thought that you'd have to give something, maybe even everything up. Imagining what the world would be like without "whiteness" and the power it bequeaths is unfathomable because it's the only world most of you have known- and besides, it feels good- right?
That's the nagging conundrum for well-meaning white folks who are offended and truly hurt by the world they see around them. How do you approach the restructuring of a society that both creates and fulfills you without losing part of you? That's not a question that can be answered or a problem that can be solved by Black folks.
It's on you
"Asking the people who you suppress and oppress for their ideas on how not to be suppressed and oppressed by you is disingenuous at best."
It seems like you're saying you don't want to be involved in whatever may be attempted to make progress. I have a feeling that if a group of well-intentioned white people got together and made some proposals, some in the black community would reject the suggestions out of hand for not having any input from the oppressed. (I do not believe this is an acceptable excuse not to make such proposals.) I think calling it 'disingenuous at best' is over the top.
"It's on you"
Yes, it is. I am confident that there are white people prepared to surrender something in an effort to promote equality. If we're as ignorant as you accuse us of being, how can we possibly make any change for better?
There has never been a time in the history of this country when Africans or their descendants weren't willing/asking for/demanding to be involved in a discussion about achieving their full citizenship. Black folks have always been a constant reminder of the distance between what America claims to be and what it actually is. Undoubtedly, collectively we will continue to push for full citizenship and undoubtedly America will push back. So, it's never going to be a question of whether or not I want to be 'involved'. I was born involved.
That said, you're missing the point.
You, and when I say 'you' I mean white people, have to fix this. At the very least you have to be accountable. If you think 'proposals' are in order then you need to present 'proposals' to each other- you need a consensus amongst yourselves.
You need to come up with a game plan to fix yourself.
I know that last sentence is off-putting, but that's where we are and I don't think white people hear that sentiment nearly enough. Every time I bring it up here or elsewhere it clears the room. Whenever I post the same words from relatively genteel artists like Baldwin or Toni Morrison I get the same response.
Bottom line- you need to put some work in- if any of this means anything to you. If you claim to be just another cog in a machine that you have no control over then maybe it's time for you to unplug that machine. If you lack the courage, and it is a lack of courage in some respects (btw I never said you were ignorant, I referred to the folks who stormed the Capitol as ignorant- and they are) start the process by taking a page from any number of groups who survive by devising ways to fight for their citizenship on a daily basis.
"...the great force of history comes from the fact that we carry it within us, are unconsciously controlled by it in many ways, and history is literally present in all that we do." -James Baldwin
Ever since I read this quote, I have felt the certainty of and gratitude for, the truth of it which frankly should have been obvious to me all along. It's a start.
flimbro said:
Red_Barchetta said:
flimbro said:
terp said:
I'm still waiting to hear what the actionable proposal is.
And we're all still waiting for you to figure it out for yourself.
The reason this is all so confusing and foreign to you and others is that it's never been required of you. If you believe that your lifestyle, beliefs, philosophy, art, religion, science, etc is the default for society you never have to inspect or evaluate those things or entertain the idea that worthwhile information/ideas may come from somewhere else. Additionally, you never have to critically evaluate your role in that society and include self-improvement in any assessment. If you never have to consider your role in the creation of a just society- all you end up doing is repeating your mythology and presenting the requirements for success in your world to everyone else.
You don't think there is a 'solution' to the problem that I'm describing because you've never had to even identify the problem as a problem. For you it's just always been the way things are so deconstructing that reality and removing yourself from the center and assuming accountability along with authorship feels uncomfortable, strange, and threatening.
Asking the people your society holds at arms distance from citizenship for the solution to the problem you've created and maintained is a defensive move designed to stymie any forward motion. You're the architect and the beneficiary- you built this rickety house and if it's yours to fix (if you care about fixing it). Asking the people who you suppress and oppress for their ideas on how not to be suppressed and oppressed by you is disingenuous at best.
We are all at a point where the harm created by white supremacy and privilege is on full display and still white folks are confused. For four years your president has run roughshod over every single law and protocol associated with the presidency and for four years white folks wake up in the morning feigning 'surprise' that it's happening. You've been shocked and dismayed and embarrassed and appalled and disheartened but you haven't done one thing to stop him- nothing. That's because when all is said and done you understand that a basic tenet of white privilege and moneyed patriarchy that it creates is that you get to do whatever you can get away with as long as you can get away with it. To the victor go the spoils. Trump won and per the rules he gets to run the table. Even today, white power brokers are unsure what to do about the madman they've unleashed, most preferring to simply let his tenure run it's course.
When pushed to its limits this perspective even includes the people who at any other time would be the dismissed dregs of white society. That's why the capitol building was overrun yesterday. Those hillbillies were fighting back against a movement to steal their country from them. Good white Americans were fighting back against the Black, brown, gay, Jewish, and whatever else hordes who were trying to steal their country by stealing an election. Of course, none of that is true, but that's beside the point- truth has nothing to do with it- it's the imaginary assault on whiteness. They'd had been told that they were under attack and that was enough, so they were allowed to 'breach' a federal building (is it actually a breach if the cops, noting your whiteness, wave you through barricades and hold the door open for you?).
The monster in these details is the reality that considering what you as a white person could possibly do to restructure the violent, unjust society you've created is the thought that you'd have to give something, maybe even everything up. Imagining what the world would be like without "whiteness" and the power it bequeaths is unfathomable because it's the only world most of you have known- and besides, it feels good- right?
That's the nagging conundrum for well-meaning white folks who are offended and truly hurt by the world they see around them. How do you approach the restructuring of a society that both creates and fulfills you without losing part of you? That's not a question that can be answered or a problem that can be solved by Black folks.
It's on you
"Asking the people who you suppress and oppress for their ideas on how not to be suppressed and oppressed by you is disingenuous at best."
It seems like you're saying you don't want to be involved in whatever may be attempted to make progress. I have a feeling that if a group of well-intentioned white people got together and made some proposals, some in the black community would reject the suggestions out of hand for not having any input from the oppressed. (I do not believe this is an acceptable excuse not to make such proposals.) I think calling it 'disingenuous at best' is over the top.
"It's on you"
Yes, it is. I am confident that there are white people prepared to surrender something in an effort to promote equality. If we're as ignorant as you accuse us of being, how can we possibly make any change for better?
There has never been a time in the history of this country when Africans or their descendants weren't willing/asking for/demanding to be involved in a discussion about achieving their full citizenship. Black folks have always been a constant reminder of the distance between what America claims to be and what it actually is. Undoubtedly, collectively we will continue to push for full citizenship and undoubtedly America will push back. So, it's never going to be a question of whether or not I want to be 'involved'. I was born involved.
That said, you're missing the point.
You, and when I say 'you' I mean white people, have to fix this. At the very least you have to be accountable. If you think 'proposals' are in order then you need to present 'proposals' to each other- you need a consensus amongst yourselves.
You need to come up with a game plan to fix yourself.
I know that last sentence is off-putting, but that's where we are and I don't think white people hear that sentiment nearly enough. Every time I bring it up here or elsewhere it clears the room. Whenever I post the same words from relatively genteel artists like Baldwin or Toni Morrison I get the same response.
Bottom line- you need to put some work in- if any of this means anything to you. If you claim to be just another cog in a machine that you have no control over then maybe it's time for you to unplug that machine. If you lack the courage, and it is a lack of courage in some respects (btw I never said you were ignorant, I referred to the folks who stormed the Capitol as ignorant- and they are) start the process by taking a page from any number of groups who survive by devising ways to fight for their citizenship on a daily basis.
Still nothing, huh?
flimbro said:
There has never been a time in the history of this country when Africans or their descendants weren't willing/asking for/demanding to be involved in a discussion about achieving their full citizenship. Black folks have always been a constant reminder of the distance between what America claims to be and what it actually is. Undoubtedly, collectively we will continue to push for full citizenship and undoubtedly America will push back. So, it's never going to be a question of whether or not I want to be 'involved'. I was born involved.
That said, you're missing the point.
You, and when I say 'you' I mean white people, have to fix this. At the very least you have to be accountable. If you think 'proposals' are in order then you need to present 'proposals' to each other- you need a consensus amongst yourselves.
You need to come up with a game plan to fix yourself.
I know that last sentence is off-putting, but that's where we are and I don't think white people hear that sentiment nearly enough. Every time I bring it up here or elsewhere it clears the room. Whenever I post the same words from relatively genteel artists like Baldwin or Toni Morrison I get the same response.
Bottom line- you need to put some work in- if any of this means anything to you. If you claim to be just another cog in a machine that you have no control over then maybe it's time for you to unplug that machine. If you lack the courage, and it is a lack of courage in some respects (btw I never said you were ignorant, I referred to the folks who stormed the Capitol as ignorant- and they are) start the process by taking a page from any number of groups who survive by devising ways to fight for their citizenship on a daily basis.
I was struggling to follow the ask/demand in some of the earlier posts, but this one was much clearer.
Thanks.
flimbro said:
You need to come up with a game plan to fix yourself.
That's what I was looking for. Thank you.
terp said:
flimbro said:
Red_Barchetta said:
flimbro said:
terp said:
I'm still waiting to hear what the actionable proposal is.
And we're all still waiting for you to figure it out for yourself.
The reason this is all so confusing and foreign to you and others is that it's never been required of you. If you believe that your lifestyle, beliefs, philosophy, art, religion, science, etc is the default for society you never have to inspect or evaluate those things or entertain the idea that worthwhile information/ideas may come from somewhere else. Additionally, you never have to critically evaluate your role in that society and include self-improvement in any assessment. If you never have to consider your role in the creation of a just society- all you end up doing is repeating your mythology and presenting the requirements for success in your world to everyone else.
You don't think there is a 'solution' to the problem that I'm describing because you've never had to even identify the problem as a problem. For you it's just always been the way things are so deconstructing that reality and removing yourself from the center and assuming accountability along with authorship feels uncomfortable, strange, and threatening.
Asking the people your society holds at arms distance from citizenship for the solution to the problem you've created and maintained is a defensive move designed to stymie any forward motion. You're the architect and the beneficiary- you built this rickety house and if it's yours to fix (if you care about fixing it). Asking the people who you suppress and oppress for their ideas on how not to be suppressed and oppressed by you is disingenuous at best.
We are all at a point where the harm created by white supremacy and privilege is on full display and still white folks are confused. For four years your president has run roughshod over every single law and protocol associated with the presidency and for four years white folks wake up in the morning feigning 'surprise' that it's happening. You've been shocked and dismayed and embarrassed and appalled and disheartened but you haven't done one thing to stop him- nothing. That's because when all is said and done you understand that a basic tenet of white privilege and moneyed patriarchy that it creates is that you get to do whatever you can get away with as long as you can get away with it. To the victor go the spoils. Trump won and per the rules he gets to run the table. Even today, white power brokers are unsure what to do about the madman they've unleashed, most preferring to simply let his tenure run it's course.
When pushed to its limits this perspective even includes the people who at any other time would be the dismissed dregs of white society. That's why the capitol building was overrun yesterday. Those hillbillies were fighting back against a movement to steal their country from them. Good white Americans were fighting back against the Black, brown, gay, Jewish, and whatever else hordes who were trying to steal their country by stealing an election. Of course, none of that is true, but that's beside the point- truth has nothing to do with it- it's the imaginary assault on whiteness. They'd had been told that they were under attack and that was enough, so they were allowed to 'breach' a federal building (is it actually a breach if the cops, noting your whiteness, wave you through barricades and hold the door open for you?).
The monster in these details is the reality that considering what you as a white person could possibly do to restructure the violent, unjust society you've created is the thought that you'd have to give something, maybe even everything up. Imagining what the world would be like without "whiteness" and the power it bequeaths is unfathomable because it's the only world most of you have known- and besides, it feels good- right?
That's the nagging conundrum for well-meaning white folks who are offended and truly hurt by the world they see around them. How do you approach the restructuring of a society that both creates and fulfills you without losing part of you? That's not a question that can be answered or a problem that can be solved by Black folks.
It's on you
"Asking the people who you suppress and oppress for their ideas on how not to be suppressed and oppressed by you is disingenuous at best."
It seems like you're saying you don't want to be involved in whatever may be attempted to make progress. I have a feeling that if a group of well-intentioned white people got together and made some proposals, some in the black community would reject the suggestions out of hand for not having any input from the oppressed. (I do not believe this is an acceptable excuse not to make such proposals.) I think calling it 'disingenuous at best' is over the top.
"It's on you"
Yes, it is. I am confident that there are white people prepared to surrender something in an effort to promote equality. If we're as ignorant as you accuse us of being, how can we possibly make any change for better?
There has never been a time in the history of this country when Africans or their descendants weren't willing/asking for/demanding to be involved in a discussion about achieving their full citizenship. Black folks have always been a constant reminder of the distance between what America claims to be and what it actually is. Undoubtedly, collectively we will continue to push for full citizenship and undoubtedly America will push back. So, it's never going to be a question of whether or not I want to be 'involved'. I was born involved.
That said, you're missing the point.
You, and when I say 'you' I mean white people, have to fix this. At the very least you have to be accountable. If you think 'proposals' are in order then you need to present 'proposals' to each other- you need a consensus amongst yourselves.
You need to come up with a game plan to fix yourself.
I know that last sentence is off-putting, but that's where we are and I don't think white people hear that sentiment nearly enough. Every time I bring it up here or elsewhere it clears the room. Whenever I post the same words from relatively genteel artists like Baldwin or Toni Morrison I get the same response.
Bottom line- you need to put some work in- if any of this means anything to you. If you claim to be just another cog in a machine that you have no control over then maybe it's time for you to unplug that machine. If you lack the courage, and it is a lack of courage in some respects (btw I never said you were ignorant, I referred to the folks who stormed the Capitol as ignorant- and they are) start the process by taking a page from any number of groups who survive by devising ways to fight for their citizenship on a daily basis.
Still nothing, huh?
Not my job hoss. Can’t say that any plainer than I have already and I don’t want to belabor the point or bore the adults in attendance any more than I have already.
Let’s talk about you tho big guy. You have really done a stellar job at being confused about all of this, so kudos! You have a script and you stuck to it! In the process you’ve pretty much substantiated an appreciable amount of what I’ve been trying to convey (didn’t think about that did you?) and for that I say thank you.
Maybe take a quick nap and google something inconsequential to poke the libs with for the next couple of hours.
peace
Reports of IEDs found around the Capitol. Guy with plastic handcuffs. Another with a trunk full of molotov cocktails and a semi-automatic rifle. So even if some folks want to laugh at the MAGAs as goofballs, we should be able to agree that they are dangerous goofballs and not LOL goofballs.
Some of these people had clear intent to do serious harm to members of congress they don't agree with.
Terrorism. Full stop.
flimbro said:
terp said:
flimbro said:
Red_Barchetta said:
flimbro said:
terp said:
I'm still waiting to hear what the actionable proposal is.
And we're all still waiting for you to figure it out for yourself.
The reason this is all so confusing and foreign to you and others is that it's never been required of you. If you believe that your lifestyle, beliefs, philosophy, art, religion, science, etc is the default for society you never have to inspect or evaluate those things or entertain the idea that worthwhile information/ideas may come from somewhere else. Additionally, you never have to critically evaluate your role in that society and include self-improvement in any assessment. If you never have to consider your role in the creation of a just society- all you end up doing is repeating your mythology and presenting the requirements for success in your world to everyone else.
You don't think there is a 'solution' to the problem that I'm describing because you've never had to even identify the problem as a problem. For you it's just always been the way things are so deconstructing that reality and removing yourself from the center and assuming accountability along with authorship feels uncomfortable, strange, and threatening.
Asking the people your society holds at arms distance from citizenship for the solution to the problem you've created and maintained is a defensive move designed to stymie any forward motion. You're the architect and the beneficiary- you built this rickety house and if it's yours to fix (if you care about fixing it). Asking the people who you suppress and oppress for their ideas on how not to be suppressed and oppressed by you is disingenuous at best.
We are all at a point where the harm created by white supremacy and privilege is on full display and still white folks are confused. For four years your president has run roughshod over every single law and protocol associated with the presidency and for four years white folks wake up in the morning feigning 'surprise' that it's happening. You've been shocked and dismayed and embarrassed and appalled and disheartened but you haven't done one thing to stop him- nothing. That's because when all is said and done you understand that a basic tenet of white privilege and moneyed patriarchy that it creates is that you get to do whatever you can get away with as long as you can get away with it. To the victor go the spoils. Trump won and per the rules he gets to run the table. Even today, white power brokers are unsure what to do about the madman they've unleashed, most preferring to simply let his tenure run it's course.
When pushed to its limits this perspective even includes the people who at any other time would be the dismissed dregs of white society. That's why the capitol building was overrun yesterday. Those hillbillies were fighting back against a movement to steal their country from them. Good white Americans were fighting back against the Black, brown, gay, Jewish, and whatever else hordes who were trying to steal their country by stealing an election. Of course, none of that is true, but that's beside the point- truth has nothing to do with it- it's the imaginary assault on whiteness. They'd had been told that they were under attack and that was enough, so they were allowed to 'breach' a federal building (is it actually a breach if the cops, noting your whiteness, wave you through barricades and hold the door open for you?).
The monster in these details is the reality that considering what you as a white person could possibly do to restructure the violent, unjust society you've created is the thought that you'd have to give something, maybe even everything up. Imagining what the world would be like without "whiteness" and the power it bequeaths is unfathomable because it's the only world most of you have known- and besides, it feels good- right?
That's the nagging conundrum for well-meaning white folks who are offended and truly hurt by the world they see around them. How do you approach the restructuring of a society that both creates and fulfills you without losing part of you? That's not a question that can be answered or a problem that can be solved by Black folks.
It's on you
"Asking the people who you suppress and oppress for their ideas on how not to be suppressed and oppressed by you is disingenuous at best."
It seems like you're saying you don't want to be involved in whatever may be attempted to make progress. I have a feeling that if a group of well-intentioned white people got together and made some proposals, some in the black community would reject the suggestions out of hand for not having any input from the oppressed. (I do not believe this is an acceptable excuse not to make such proposals.) I think calling it 'disingenuous at best' is over the top.
"It's on you"
Yes, it is. I am confident that there are white people prepared to surrender something in an effort to promote equality. If we're as ignorant as you accuse us of being, how can we possibly make any change for better?
There has never been a time in the history of this country when Africans or their descendants weren't willing/asking for/demanding to be involved in a discussion about achieving their full citizenship. Black folks have always been a constant reminder of the distance between what America claims to be and what it actually is. Undoubtedly, collectively we will continue to push for full citizenship and undoubtedly America will push back. So, it's never going to be a question of whether or not I want to be 'involved'. I was born involved.
That said, you're missing the point.
You, and when I say 'you' I mean white people, have to fix this. At the very least you have to be accountable. If you think 'proposals' are in order then you need to present 'proposals' to each other- you need a consensus amongst yourselves.
You need to come up with a game plan to fix yourself.
I know that last sentence is off-putting, but that's where we are and I don't think white people hear that sentiment nearly enough. Every time I bring it up here or elsewhere it clears the room. Whenever I post the same words from relatively genteel artists like Baldwin or Toni Morrison I get the same response.
Bottom line- you need to put some work in- if any of this means anything to you. If you claim to be just another cog in a machine that you have no control over then maybe it's time for you to unplug that machine. If you lack the courage, and it is a lack of courage in some respects (btw I never said you were ignorant, I referred to the folks who stormed the Capitol as ignorant- and they are) start the process by taking a page from any number of groups who survive by devising ways to fight for their citizenship on a daily basis.
Still nothing, huh?
Not my job hoss. Can’t say that any plainer than I have already and I don’t want to belabor the point or bore the adults in attendance any more than I have already.
Let’s talk about you tho big guy. You have really done a stellar job at being confused about all of this, so kudos! You have a script and you stuck to it! In the process you’ve pretty much substantiated an appreciable amount of what I’ve been trying to convey (didn’t think about that did you?) and for that I say thank you.
Maybe take a quick nap and google something inconsequential to poke the libs with for the next couple of hours.
peace
I'm not confused. I try to be the best person I can be. I treat people as individuals and teach my kids to do the same.
Where you lose me is that you want to solve a problem of race by focusing on race. This is a very divisive and frankly counterproductive strategy. And throwing the term hillbilly around from someone calling for racial justice is a bit rich. Poor white people are the pretty much the last group you can treat that way, huh?
I will give you an example. While discussing the George Floyd tragedy we discussed curbing police violence in general. This would alleviate the issue of police violence specifically against the black community because it reduce police violence holistically. You said that was a different issue and did not seem interested in pursuing. So, you are going to lose support, thus potentially impeding progress on an issue that you admit most acutely affects the black community.
What you offer above strikes me as mental masturbation. There is no there there.
ml1 said:
Reports of IEDs found around the Capitol. Guy with plastic handcuffs. Another with a trunk full of molotov cocktails and a semi-automatic rifle. So even if some folks want to laugh at the MAGAs as goofballs, we should be able to agree that they are dangerous goofballs and not LOL goofballs.
Some of these people had clear intent to do serious harm to members of congress they don't agree with.
Terrorism. Full stop.
The fact that so many of them had huge backpacks walking around was scary. Coolers filled with pipe bombs. Molotov cocktails. The whole thing was organized. With help from within. Capitol police and some members of Congress were also complicit. These insurgents knew exactly where to go once inside the building.
Jaytee said:
ml1 said:
Reports of IEDs found around the Capitol. Guy with plastic handcuffs. Another with a trunk full of molotov cocktails and a semi-automatic rifle. So even if some folks want to laugh at the MAGAs as goofballs, we should be able to agree that they are dangerous goofballs and not LOL goofballs.
Some of these people had clear intent to do serious harm to members of congress they don't agree with.
Terrorism. Full stop.
The fact that so many of them had huge backpacks walking around was scary. Coolers filled with pipe bombs. Molotov cocktails. The whole thing was organized. With help from within. Capitol police and some members of Congress were also complicit. These insurgents knew exactly where to go once inside the building.
I applaud your ability to pivot so quickly.
terp said:
flimbro said:
terp said:
flimbro said:
Red_Barchetta said:
flimbro said:
terp said:
I'm still waiting to hear what the actionable proposal is.
And we're all still waiting for you to figure it out for yourself.
The reason this is all so confusing and foreign to you and others is that it's never been required of you. If you believe that your lifestyle, beliefs, philosophy, art, religion, science, etc is the default for society you never have to inspect or evaluate those things or entertain the idea that worthwhile information/ideas may come from somewhere else. Additionally, you never have to critically evaluate your role in that society and include self-improvement in any assessment. If you never have to consider your role in the creation of a just society- all you end up doing is repeating your mythology and presenting the requirements for success in your world to everyone else.
You don't think there is a 'solution' to the problem that I'm describing because you've never had to even identify the problem as a problem. For you it's just always been the way things are so deconstructing that reality and removing yourself from the center and assuming accountability along with authorship feels uncomfortable, strange, and threatening.
Asking the people your society holds at arms distance from citizenship for the solution to the problem you've created and maintained is a defensive move designed to stymie any forward motion. You're the architect and the beneficiary- you built this rickety house and if it's yours to fix (if you care about fixing it). Asking the people who you suppress and oppress for their ideas on how not to be suppressed and oppressed by you is disingenuous at best.
We are all at a point where the harm created by white supremacy and privilege is on full display and still white folks are confused. For four years your president has run roughshod over every single law and protocol associated with the presidency and for four years white folks wake up in the morning feigning 'surprise' that it's happening. You've been shocked and dismayed and embarrassed and appalled and disheartened but you haven't done one thing to stop him- nothing. That's because when all is said and done you understand that a basic tenet of white privilege and moneyed patriarchy that it creates is that you get to do whatever you can get away with as long as you can get away with it. To the victor go the spoils. Trump won and per the rules he gets to run the table. Even today, white power brokers are unsure what to do about the madman they've unleashed, most preferring to simply let his tenure run it's course.
When pushed to its limits this perspective even includes the people who at any other time would be the dismissed dregs of white society. That's why the capitol building was overrun yesterday. Those hillbillies were fighting back against a movement to steal their country from them. Good white Americans were fighting back against the Black, brown, gay, Jewish, and whatever else hordes who were trying to steal their country by stealing an election. Of course, none of that is true, but that's beside the point- truth has nothing to do with it- it's the imaginary assault on whiteness. They'd had been told that they were under attack and that was enough, so they were allowed to 'breach' a federal building (is it actually a breach if the cops, noting your whiteness, wave you through barricades and hold the door open for you?).
The monster in these details is the reality that considering what you as a white person could possibly do to restructure the violent, unjust society you've created is the thought that you'd have to give something, maybe even everything up. Imagining what the world would be like without "whiteness" and the power it bequeaths is unfathomable because it's the only world most of you have known- and besides, it feels good- right?
That's the nagging conundrum for well-meaning white folks who are offended and truly hurt by the world they see around them. How do you approach the restructuring of a society that both creates and fulfills you without losing part of you? That's not a question that can be answered or a problem that can be solved by Black folks.
It's on you
"Asking the people who you suppress and oppress for their ideas on how not to be suppressed and oppressed by you is disingenuous at best."
It seems like you're saying you don't want to be involved in whatever may be attempted to make progress. I have a feeling that if a group of well-intentioned white people got together and made some proposals, some in the black community would reject the suggestions out of hand for not having any input from the oppressed. (I do not believe this is an acceptable excuse not to make such proposals.) I think calling it 'disingenuous at best' is over the top.
"It's on you"
Yes, it is. I am confident that there are white people prepared to surrender something in an effort to promote equality. If we're as ignorant as you accuse us of being, how can we possibly make any change for better?
There has never been a time in the history of this country when Africans or their descendants weren't willing/asking for/demanding to be involved in a discussion about achieving their full citizenship. Black folks have always been a constant reminder of the distance between what America claims to be and what it actually is. Undoubtedly, collectively we will continue to push for full citizenship and undoubtedly America will push back. So, it's never going to be a question of whether or not I want to be 'involved'. I was born involved.
That said, you're missing the point.
You, and when I say 'you' I mean white people, have to fix this. At the very least you have to be accountable. If you think 'proposals' are in order then you need to present 'proposals' to each other- you need a consensus amongst yourselves.
You need to come up with a game plan to fix yourself.
I know that last sentence is off-putting, but that's where we are and I don't think white people hear that sentiment nearly enough. Every time I bring it up here or elsewhere it clears the room. Whenever I post the same words from relatively genteel artists like Baldwin or Toni Morrison I get the same response.
Bottom line- you need to put some work in- if any of this means anything to you. If you claim to be just another cog in a machine that you have no control over then maybe it's time for you to unplug that machine. If you lack the courage, and it is a lack of courage in some respects (btw I never said you were ignorant, I referred to the folks who stormed the Capitol as ignorant- and they are) start the process by taking a page from any number of groups who survive by devising ways to fight for their citizenship on a daily basis.
Still nothing, huh?
Not my job hoss. Can’t say that any plainer than I have already and I don’t want to belabor the point or bore the adults in attendance any more than I have already.
Let’s talk about you tho big guy. You have really done a stellar job at being confused about all of this, so kudos! You have a script and you stuck to it! In the process you’ve pretty much substantiated an appreciable amount of what I’ve been trying to convey (didn’t think about that did you?) and for that I say thank you.
Maybe take a quick nap and google something inconsequential to poke the libs with for the next couple of hours.
peaceI'm not confused. I try to be the best person I can be. I treat people as individuals and teach my kids to do the same.
horse poop. You've already accused us of tribalism.
Your self-reflection skills are lacking.
try again.
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