I dont yet know the full position of the NHS etc on Britain’s young people wondering about their gender and identity. However this recent article on NHS trans workers’ rights vs female patients’ rights is concerning:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jun/11/new-nhs-guidance-could-prevent-same-sex-care-for-women

It seems quite a backward step, almost implying one shouldn’t be listening to women and their requests/questions at all. 

dave said:

paulsurovell said:

PVW said:

He's just asking questions, Dave.

I wasn't but I will now -- what does Dave's post have to do with the film under discussion?

Do you show Hitler's art to people and ask them to ignore, you know, everything else?

Let's do "Triumph of the Will" now - "It's a documentary about enthusiastic supporters of a compelling orator. I don't know what the Holocaust has to do with this film under discussion."

paulsurovell said:

dave said:

Walsh and other speakers at the rally used incendiary language directing anger at medical professionals

....

Daily Wire's Matt Walsh calls LGBTQ teachers “groomers,” adding, “There is no heterosexual person demanding this sort of thing on the other side”

....

FIND MORE ABOUT PAUL'S PROUD BOY AT:

https://www.mediamatters.org/matt-walsh

Was this stuff in the film that we're talking about?

" 'You are all child abusers. You prey upon impressionable children and indoctrinate them into your insane ideological cult, a cult which holds many fanatical views but none so deranged as the idea that boys are girls and girls are boys. ... You are poison. You are predators. I can see why you try to stop us from speaking, you know that your ideas are indefensible, you silence the opposing side because you have no argument. You can only hide under your beds like pathetic little gutless cowards, hoping that we will shut up and go away. But we won’t. I promise you that.' ...

"The quote above comes from 80 minutes into the movie, when Walsh is shown speaking at a meeting of the Loudoun County School Board, called so that residents could express their views on Policy 8040, which would allow transgender students to use their correct name and pronouns, as well as school bathrooms and locker rooms that align with their gender identity."

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/in-what-is-a-woman-matt-walsh-asks-a-question/

And, another "improvement" to Twitter's UX.  Pretty much what you'd expect from Musk these days.

paulsurovell said:

ridski said:

paulsurovell said:

ridski said:

I may have missed it, but I didn't see a South Mountain Peace Action booth at the big North NJ Pride event at Memorial Park today.

How do you feel about the UK ban on puberty blockers?

Was there any South Mountain Peace Action presence at Pride? I saw you were there at Memorial Day. No show for Pride?

Maybe you missed my question while you were editing your post.

How do you feel about the UK ban on puberty blockers (except for clinical trials)?

Are you going to renounce your British citizenship?

I edited my post because I missed the "e" in "Peace." FYI.

paulsurovell said:

ridski said:

paulsurovell said:

ridski said:

I may have missed it, but I didn't see a South Mountain Peace Action booth at the big North NJ Pride event at Memorial Park today.

How do you feel about the UK ban on puberty blockers?

As the NHS in Scotland and Northern Ireland (possibly Wales, I'll have to look into that) have not changed their stance on puberty blockers, I can't comment on a UK ban, as it hasn't happened.

Here, you can "look into" this:

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/09/health/puberty-blockers-transgender-children-britain-nhs.html

I "looked" into this:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-65860272

Puberty blockers will only be prescribed to children attending gender identity services as part of clinical research, NHS England has announced.

NHS England is not NHS Scotland or NHS Northern Ireland. It's not the UK. If DeSantis bans books in Florida, we can still read them in NJ, paulsurovell. 

Also worth mentioning because you've brought it up before, that the Tavistock Centre is the only place where young people can get gender affirming care in England. After reports that it was being mismanaged, it will be closed next year, but now two new centres will be opened in different parts of the country, so young people won't have to travel all the way to London to get it.

ml1 said:

Smedley said:

ml1 said:

Smedley said:

ml1 said:

nohero said:

"Unable to support" is an incorrect statement. The support is in the posts from myself and others, for anyone who bothers to read the material provided.

And if you're not that familiar with Walsh or his efforts, but only with one example, then you are making a judgment on woefully insufficient information.

the thing that a lot of people seem to be concluding is that they think Walsh is not anti-trans because he's not necessarily expressing hatred for trans people specifically. But his thing is to spread propaganda against gender affirming health care. It's a distinction without a difference. He's anti-trans because he's fighting a jihad against their health care. 

how was the thread propaganda?

If you were a trans person, wouldn’t you want trans health care providers to be ethical, and insurance companies that cover trans health care to not be defrauded by people who don’t follow the rules?

I know I’m asking questions here, dangerous territory. 

did you read anything about the story aside from the tweets?

Asked and answered.

I didn't see your answer. But if you did familiarize yourself beyond the tweets and you don't see how they're misleading and inflammatory, then there isn't much to discuss is there?

Is this your new debate style, ie just refer people to the generic World Wide Web rather than actually offering your own information, opinion and perspective? Doesn't seem like what a message board is for.

You recently mentioned you were on here 20 years, perhaps you're burnt out. I suggest you take the summer off to recharge your batteries, because you're really phoning it in.   

paulsurovell said:

ridski said:

paulsurovell said:

ridski said:

I may have missed it, but I didn't see a South Mountain Peace Action booth at the big North NJ Pride event at Memorial Park today.

How do you feel about the UK ban on puberty blockers?

Was there any South Mountain Peace Action presence at Pride? I saw you were there at Memorial Day. No show for Pride?

Maybe you missed my question while you were editing your post.

How do you feel about the UK ban on puberty blockers (except for clinical trials)?

Are you going to renounce your British citizenship?

I don't really "feel" anything about it. I "think" it's unfortunate for those who want that kind of care, but later surgery in adulthood is still available.

As for the last question, you're just being ridiculous. Firstly, as I said, NHS Scotland at this point still offers this treatment, despite requests to stop from Scottish Conservatives. Secondly, I don't base my citizenship on a single issue, just like you haven't moved to Canada and renounced your citizenship after Roe v. Wade was overturned.

Finally, was there any South Mountain Peace Action presence at the North NJ Pride yesterday? It's a simple yes or no. I checked your website for information, but it hasn't been updated since 2015.

Smedley said:

Is this your new debate style, ie just refer people to the generic World Wide Web rather than actually offering your own information, opinion and perspective? Doesn't seem like what a message board is for.

Sometimes MOL repliers sound like they expect to be caught up to speed on complicated subjects simply by asking other commenters to explain them. If I were them, I’d start with the World Wide Web instead of a message board.

nohero said:

" 'You are all child abusers. You prey upon impressionable children and indoctrinate them into your insane ideological cult, a cult which holds many fanatical views but none so deranged as the idea that boys are girls and girls are boys. ... You are poison. You are predators. I can see why you try to stop us from speaking, you know that your ideas are indefensible, you silence the opposing side because you have no argument. You can only hide under your beds like pathetic little gutless cowards, hoping that we will shut up and go away. But we won’t. I promise you that.' ...

"The quote above comes from 80 minutes into the movie, when Walsh is shown speaking at a meeting of the Loudoun County School Board, called so that residents could express their views on Policy 8040, which would allow transgender students to use their correct name and pronouns, as well as school bathrooms and locker rooms that align with their gender identity."

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/in-what-is-a-woman-matt-walsh-asks-a-question/

not to mention Walsh rented a basement from a friend in loudoun in order to speak at the school board meeting…. He has no kids in the school district obviously. 

Smedley said:

ml1 said:

Smedley said:

ml1 said:

Smedley said:

ml1 said:

nohero said:

"Unable to support" is an incorrect statement. The support is in the posts from myself and others, for anyone who bothers to read the material provided.

And if you're not that familiar with Walsh or his efforts, but only with one example, then you are making a judgment on woefully insufficient information.

the thing that a lot of people seem to be concluding is that they think Walsh is not anti-trans because he's not necessarily expressing hatred for trans people specifically. But his thing is to spread propaganda against gender affirming health care. It's a distinction without a difference. He's anti-trans because he's fighting a jihad against their health care. 

how was the thread propaganda?

If you were a trans person, wouldn’t you want trans health care providers to be ethical, and insurance companies that cover trans health care to not be defrauded by people who don’t follow the rules?

I know I’m asking questions here, dangerous territory. 

did you read anything about the story aside from the tweets?

Asked and answered.

I didn't see your answer. But if you did familiarize yourself beyond the tweets and you don't see how they're misleading and inflammatory, then there isn't much to discuss is there?

Is this your new debate style, ie just refer people to the generic World Wide Web rather than actually offering your own information, opinion and perspective? Doesn't seem like what a message board is for.

You recently mentioned you were on here 20 years, perhaps you're burnt out. I suggest you take the summer off to recharge your batteries, because you're really phoning it in.   

I have already offered my opinion and perspective. You know what it is.  With most people here, I'd maybe post some quotes and links. But I figure you'd still disagree with me whatever info I include. 

So I think you could form your own opinion on the issue by doing a little reading instead of relying on whatever info I choose to share with you.

why are you so resistant to doing that?

ml1 said:

why are you so resistant to doing that?

A message board is for offering your own information, opinion or perspective, and then debating it for however long someone else wants to.

You've provided ample opinion and perspective about Walsh himself. I don't disagree that he is an objectionable figure. But you've provided next to nothing on how/why the content of the Twitter thread in question is full bore anti-trans, which was the initial assertion. So without this, the only conclusion to be drawn is that the thread is full bore anti-trans because of Walsh, period. 

Which is pretty much the definition of the cancel culture that many on the left claim they don't practice.  

DaveSchmidt said:

ml1 said:

why are you so resistant to doing that?

A message board is for offering your own information, opinion and perspective, and then debating it for however long someone else wants to.

And in other news, it's cloudy today. 

Smedley said:

You've provided ample opinion and perspective about Walsh himself. I don't disagree that he is an objectionable figure. But you've provided next to nothing on how/why the content of the Twitter thread in question is full bore anti-trans, which was the initial assertion. So without this, the only conclusion to be drawn is that the thread is full bore anti-trans because of Walsh, period. 

Which is pretty much the definition of the cancel culture that many on the left claim they don't practice.  

I've also called the tweets misleading to the point of being lies, and full of unnecessarily inflammatory terminology. The way the tweets are written is anti-trans on its face IMHO, although you seem to see nothing that a trans person would find objectionable.

but no, I'm not going to do research for you. If you really and truly care about the truth of this issue (and all indications are that you don't), find out for yourself instead of asking me to spoon feed it to you.

DaveSchmidt said:

ml1 said:

why are you so resistant to doing that?

A message board is for offering your own information, opinion or perspective, and then debating it for however long someone else wants to.

this is true.

but being a well-informed person means looking beyond what someone else posts on a message board. So I guess my question should have been "why are you so resistant to informing yourself on this story?"

ml1 said:

Smedley said:

You've provided ample opinion and perspective about Walsh himself. I don't disagree that he is an objectionable figure. But you've provided next to nothing on how/why the content of the Twitter thread in question is full bore anti-trans, which was the initial assertion. So without this, the only conclusion to be drawn is that the thread is full bore anti-trans because of Walsh, period. 

Which is pretty much the definition of the cancel culture that many on the left claim they don't practice.  

I've also called the tweets misleading to the point of being lies, and full of unnecessarily inflammatory terminology. The way the tweets are written is anti-trans on its face IMHO, although you seem to see nothing that a trans person would find objectionable.

but no, I'm not going to do research for you. If you really and truly care about the truth of this issue (and all indications are that you don't), find out for yourself instead of asking me to spoon feed it to you.

Alright fine, but it's pretty thin stuff if you ask me. Also I noticed you didn't answer my question

"If you were a trans person, wouldn’t you want trans health care providers to be ethical, and insurance companies that cover trans health care to not be defrauded by people who don’t follow the rules?"

I guess I'll google that one too. or maybe ChatGPT. 

Smedley said:

ml1 said:

Smedley said:

You've provided ample opinion and perspective about Walsh himself. I don't disagree that he is an objectionable figure. But you've provided next to nothing on how/why the content of the Twitter thread in question is full bore anti-trans, which was the initial assertion. So without this, the only conclusion to be drawn is that the thread is full bore anti-trans because of Walsh, period. 

Which is pretty much the definition of the cancel culture that many on the left claim they don't practice.  

I've also called the tweets misleading to the point of being lies, and full of unnecessarily inflammatory terminology. The way the tweets are written is anti-trans on its face IMHO, although you seem to see nothing that a trans person would find objectionable.

but no, I'm not going to do research for you. If you really and truly care about the truth of this issue (and all indications are that you don't), find out for yourself instead of asking me to spoon feed it to you.

Alright fine, but it's pretty thin stuff if you ask me. Also I noticed you didn't answer my question

"If you were a trans person, wouldn’t you want trans health care providers to be ethical, and insurance companies that cover trans health care to not be defrauded by people who don’t follow the rules?"

I guess I'll google that one too. or maybe ChatGPT. 

I generally don't have a problem with health care workers writing diagnoses or coding conditions in a way that allows patients to have their treatments covered by insurance. If you went in for a procedure and your health care provider said if we code it as condition A, your insurance pays, but if we don't you're out of pocket, what would you do?

Fair enough, agreed on that point. But at the same time, there is evidence that the type of fast-tracking the Walsh thread revealed can increase the chance of regret. 

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-transyouth-outcomes/

Complicated issue to be sure, but slapping a "full bore anti-trans" label on that thread seems pretty reflexive to me. Cancel first, ask questions later. 

Smedley said:

Fair enough, agreed on that point. But at the same time, there is evidence that the type of fast-tracking the Walsh thread revealed can increase the chance of regret. 

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-transyouth-outcomes/

Complicated issue to be sure, but slapping a "full bore anti-trans" label on that thread seems pretty reflexive to me. Cancel first, ask questions later. 

for someone to be "canceled" they need to be denied a platform. Criticism is not "cancellation." I think you know that. Or you should.

and your opinion on this isn't all that worthwhile if you haven't bothered to understand the nuances that Walsh ignores, and the degree to which he's misleading his readers. That's what make it anti-trans.

If you're not going to bother, then what's to discuss? 

ml1 said:

Smedley said:

Fair enough, agreed on that point. But at the same time, there is evidence that the type of fast-tracking the Walsh thread revealed can increase the chance of regret. 

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-transyouth-outcomes/

Complicated issue to be sure, but slapping a "full bore anti-trans" label on that thread seems pretty reflexive to me. Cancel first, ask questions later. 

for someone to be "canceled" they need to be denied a platform. Criticism is not "cancellation." I think you know that. Or you should.

That's the literal definition, which is not applicable to this discussion, because nobody here has jurisdiction to deny Walsh a platform. 

ridski said:

paulsurovell said:

ridski said:

paulsurovell said:

ridski said:

I may have missed it, but I didn't see a South Mountain Peace Action booth at the big North NJ Pride event at Memorial Park today.

How do you feel about the UK ban on puberty blockers?

Was there any South Mountain Peace Action presence at Pride? I saw you were there at Memorial Day. No show for Pride?

Maybe you missed my question while you were editing your post.

How do you feel about the UK ban on puberty blockers (except for clinical trials)?

Are you going to renounce your British citizenship?

I don't really "feel" anything about it. I "think" it's unfortunate for those who want that kind of care, but later surgery in adulthood is still available.

As for the last question, you're just being ridiculous. Firstly, as I said, NHS Scotland at this point still offers this treatment, despite requests to stop from Scottish Conservatives. Secondly, I don't base my citizenship on a single issue, just like you haven't moved to Canada and renounced your citizenship after Roe v. Wade was overturned.

Finally, was there any South Mountain Peace Action presence at the North NJ Pride yesterday? It's a simple yes or no. I checked your website for information, but it hasn't been updated since 2015.

So you're Scottish? My question about citizenship was a rhetorical one, but you knew that. The reality of gender treatment in Scotland seems to be in doubt (3-year wait for an appointment, no appointments for 13-17 at all this year).

With regard to your view that it's "unfortunate" that children won't be given puberty blockers whose safety is unknown in England (apparently they're not in Scotland either) I suggest you reconsider and take seriously @Jaytee's rational and sensible position (image 2).

I appreciate your interest in SMPA. It turns out the booths were booked by the time I looked, but SMPA supporters attended as individuals. Was NJ Pando there? Why don't we share a booth next year?

Smedley, when you say "Walsh thread" are you talking about the documentary, or the series of tweets replying to Elon Musk's tweet that was posted in this thread?

Smedley said:

ml1 said:

Smedley said:

Fair enough, agreed on that point. But at the same time, there is evidence that the type of fast-tracking the Walsh thread revealed can increase the chance of regret. 

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-transyouth-outcomes/

Complicated issue to be sure, but slapping a "full bore anti-trans" label on that thread seems pretty reflexive to me. Cancel first, ask questions later. 

for someone to be "canceled" they need to be denied a platform. Criticism is not "cancellation." I think you know that. Or you should.

That's the literal definition, which is not applicable to this discussion, because nobody here has jurisdiction to deny Walsh a platform. 

then why did you use the term if it doesn't apply here? Just to be annoying?

if you're using the word "seems" that's a tell that what you've concluded is probably wrong. I've done my due diligence to come to my conclusion. Which is more than you're doing.

paulsurovell said:

So you're Scottish? My question about citizenship was a rhetorical one, but you knew that. The reality of gender treatment in Scotland seems to be in doubt (3-year wait for an appointment, no appointments for 13-17 at all this year).

With regard to your view that it's "unfortunate" that children won't be given puberty blockers whose safety is unknown in England (apparently they're not in Scotland either) I suggest you reconsider and take seriously @Jaytee's rational and sensible position (image 2).

I appreciate your interest in SMPA. It turns out the booths were booked by the time I looked, but SMPA supporters attended as individuals. Was NJ Pando there? Why don't we share a booth next year?

In NJ, children under 16 can't consent to ANY medical treatment, much less gender reassignment or puberty blockers. 

If "cancel" just means disagreeing, then it seems like a pretty useless term. And if conservatives simply mean they don't want to hear criticism, then that's not very free-speech of them.

PVW said:

If "cancel" just means disagreeing, then it seems like a pretty useless term. And if conservatives simply mean they don't want to hear criticism, then that's not very free-speech of them.

for real. what snowflakes.

This whole discussion has been proof positive of how insidious "activists" like Walsh are. They tweet out misleading disinformation in the guise of "investigative" reporting and people read it without being skeptical. Otherwise smart people now think that there's a medical organization that's fast-tracking people to gender reassignment surgery in less than a half hour. While you'd think most people would think twice before swallowing that, a lot don't. 

after all, when Musk replied to it, he himself called the idea "insane." You'd think he and other people would look into whether or not an "insane" practice is actually going on. Especially before sharing it to millions of followers.

but no.

paulsurovell said:

So you're Scottish? My question about citizenship was a rhetorical one, but you knew that. The reality of gender treatment in Scotland seems to be in doubt (3-year wait for an appointment, no appointments for 13-17 at all this year).

With regard to your view that it's "unfortunate" that children won't be given puberty blockers whose safety is unknown in England (apparently they're not in Scotland either) I suggest you reconsider and take seriously @Jaytee's rational and sensible position (image 2).

I appreciate your interest in SMPA. It turns out the booths were booked by the time I looked, but SMPA supporters attended as individuals. Was NJ Pando there? Why don't we share a booth next year?

My family is Scottish. 

I was merely commenting that the NY Times article you posted was factually incorrect, as was your question regarding the ban. England is not the UK, and the NHS is regional. 

The reality of any and all treatment across the UK is in doubt, as successive UK governments have deliberately strangled the NHS since Thatcher's time. 

I think it's unfortunate that children who need puberty blockers now won't be able to get them when kids who grew up 30 years ago could get them. It's not something I've really researched before as - like I mentioned - I don't really have any feelings about it, but I do empathise with trans kids. So I'm not going to pretend to know enough about it to take a position, sensible or otherwise.

We were there as individuals, too, celebrating LBGT+ Pride along with them. As for a booth next year, well, Suburban Legend has only really done two events and for what we do, a booth at an event never really made sense - very little return on investment, and my horse costume seemed to get smaller each year. Also, we're still winding down Panto operations post-COVID. We do have a show in our back pocket that we had to cancel, so if we had the funding, we could go back to it at some point. Until then, you can find us running a trivia quiz in Maplewood Village on July 1st. Appreciate the offer, though.

Any discussion of delaying the use of puberty blockers until age 16 is absurd.  Puberty blockers act to pause the onset of progression of puberty.  Waiting until puberty is nearly complete to start blocker therapy would not serve the desired purpose.  Moreover, people who suggest delaying puberty blockers until their efficacy would be nil either don't understand their purpose, are trying to deny access to them in full, and seem to suggest that they are dispensed haphazardly.  There are standards for when treatment is appropriate as well as issues of consent that must be addressed.