Unbef***ingleavable

But not so certain anyone will get it.

terp said:

max_weisenfeld said:
With all due respect, the fact that Obama did some despicable things does not mean I have to therefore accept all despicable things from here on out.

 I agree with you on that.  Everyone is outraged about Trump.  But, there's a lot of stuff that has just been going on for years.  We have been moving towards a very powerful presidency for years.  And Obama established some very troubling precedents IMO.
I agree that it doesn't mean we should accept all despicable things going forward.  But, when we like a guy in the White House and we sit back and watch him expand power at the expense of the citizens, we have to understand that it is setting a precedent.  This expanded power can and will be used by future presidents. 
I think calling Trump a neo-fascist is silly, because it does not set him apart from his predecessors in any real way.  

 When I refer to Trumpt's tendencies towards fascism, I refer to a use of of power and an increasingly open disregard for rule of law that I would assert without hesitation is unusual in the modern presidency, especially since 1945, and is completely unprecedented in peacetime.

ml1 said:
Francisco Franco will still be dead.

 After yesterday's elections in Spain, I am not so sure he is quite as dead as we thought.

I'm well aware of the drift toward the unified executive, and what that means in terms of the sever curtailment of civil liberties.  The last several presidents have all nudged the country further in that direction.

Having said that, there is something different about how Trump is pitting Americans against one another by demonizing powerless groups like immigrants and Muslims.  There are vigilante groups patrolling the southern border.  It's not alarmist to be concerned that that is something that has the potential to go very, very wrong.  And we now have a president who encourages this sort of thing.  These groups have existed in the past, but now they are getting endorsements from people in power.

https://www.usatoday.com/border-wall/story/vigilante-militia-patrol-us-mexico-border/559753001/

The self-deputization by groups of regular citizens who feel empowered to protect the country from "undesirables" is a big step toward serious totalitarianism.  Once we get concerned citizens taking surveillance and detainment powers upon themselves we're in a whole new circle of hell.

max_weisenfeld said:
 After yesterday's elections in Spain, I am not so sure he is quite as dead as we thought.

 As I read the results neither is Karl Marx

yahooyahoo said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorization_for_Use_of_Military_Force_Against_Terrorists

 From the above:

The only representative to vote against the Authorization in 2001 was Barbara Lee, who has consistently criticized it since for being a blank check giving the government unlimited powers to wage war without debate. Lee has initiated several attempts to repeal the authorization, but as of 2019 has not been successful.

ml1 said:
I'm well aware of the drift toward the unified executive, and what that means in terms of the sever curtailment of civil liberties.  The last several presidents have all nudged the country further in that direction.

 It's worse that "unified executive" when the Executive doesn't accept the Congress's oversight authority.

ml1 said:
I'm well aware of the drift toward the unified executive, and what that means in terms of the sever curtailment of civil liberties.  The last several presidents have all nudged the country further in that direction.
Having said that, there is something different about how Trump is pitting Americans against one another by demonizing powerless groups like immigrants and Muslims.  There are vigilante groups patrolling the southern border.  It's not alarmist to be concerned that that is something that has the potential to go very, very wrong.  And we now have a president who encourages this sort of thing.  These groups have existed in the past, but now they are getting endorsements from people in power.
https://www.usatoday.com/border-wall/story/vigilante-militia-patrol-us-mexico-border/559753001/

The self-deputization by groups of regular citizens who feel empowered to protect the country from "undesirables" is a big step toward serious totalitarianism.  Once we get concerned citizens taking surveillance and detainment powers upon themselves we're in a whole new circle of hell.

 How are private vigilante groups a path to totalitarianism?   I'm not saying that there aren't issues with this.  I'm just wondering how we go from private citizens patrolling the border to totalitarianism. 

max_weisenfeld said:
 When I refer to Trumpt's tendencies towards fascism, I refer to a use of of power and an increasingly open disregard for rule of law that I would assert without hesitation is unusual in the modern presidency, especially since 1945, and is completely unprecedented in peacetime.

Would you please be more precise?  The only thing that tends to be more imprecise than Trumps own rhetoric are the claims that he's a fascist or he's Hitler or he's a Russian agent or the like. 

yahooyahoo said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorization_for_Use_of_Military_Force_Against_Terrorists

I don't believe the AUMF created the Distribution Matrix(AKA Kill List) and established that as official US Policy.  I believe that happened in 2010 under President Obama. 

terp said:

ml1 said:
I'm well aware of the drift toward the unified executive, and what that means in terms of the sever curtailment of civil liberties.  The last several presidents have all nudged the country further in that direction.
Having said that, there is something different about how Trump is pitting Americans against one another by demonizing powerless groups like immigrants and Muslims.  There are vigilante groups patrolling the southern border.  It's not alarmist to be concerned that that is something that has the potential to go very, very wrong.  And we now have a president who encourages this sort of thing.  These groups have existed in the past, but now they are getting endorsements from people in power.
https://www.usatoday.com/border-wall/story/vigilante-militia-patrol-us-mexico-border/559753001/

The self-deputization by groups of regular citizens who feel empowered to protect the country from "undesirables" is a big step toward serious totalitarianism.  Once we get concerned citizens taking surveillance and detainment powers upon themselves we're in a whole new circle of hell.

 How are private vigilante groups a path to totalitarianism?   I'm not saying that there aren't issues with this.  I'm just wondering how we go from private citizens patrolling the border to totalitarianism. 

There are good people on both sides, we get it

basil said:
There are good people on both sides, we get it

 Raise your hand if you interpret, like basil, terp's comment to something Trump said.

Hmm, one hand raised.

You sure? You missed my hand the last time.

DaveSchmidt said:
You sure? You missed my hand the last time.

 Try harder next time.

terp said:
 How are private vigilante groups a path to totalitarianism?   I'm not saying that there aren't issues with this.  I'm just wondering how we go from private citizens patrolling the border to totalitarianism. 

 not just vigilante groups.  Any citizens who appoint themselves as surveillance or enforcement for the government.  What really keeps an authoritarian government in power is the fear among the citizens that they never know who is going to turn them over to the authorities.  If you can't trust any of your neighbors, how can anyone be free?  

ml1 said:

terp said:
 How are private vigilante groups a path to totalitarianism?   I'm not saying that there aren't issues with this.  I'm just wondering how we go from private citizens patrolling the border to totalitarianism. 

 not just vigilante groups.  Any citizens who appoint themselves as surveillance or enforcement for the government.  What really keeps an authoritarian government in power is the fear among the citizens that they never know who is going to turn them over to the authorities.  If you can't trust any of your neighbors, how can anyone be free?  

By the way, the leader of this group also claimed they were training to kill Obama, Clinton, and Soros. Talk about a kill list.

basil said:
By the way, the leader of this group also claimed they were training to kill Obama, Clinton, and Soros. Talk about a kill list.

I work at a location that received a package from the MAGA bomber.  So I suppose I have a little more personal reason to think the way Trump is riling people up is a little different from what we've seen in this country in the past.

Having said that I don't blame Trump himself for this larger trend.  There's a lot of stuff going on that is pushing people with legitimate reasons to be upset at the government and the powerful corporations that hold so much influence over policy.  But Trump is taking that legitimate anger and pointing it at very specific scapegoats who now need to be concerned for their safety. 

DaveSchmidt said:
You sure? You missed my hand the last time.

Sorry Dave, I didn't expect you to view things through Trump tinged glasses.  Anyway there were more hands raised, later on, as expected.

ml1 said:

basil said:
By the way, the leader of this group also claimed they were training to kill Obama, Clinton, and Soros. Talk about a kill list.

Having said that I don't blame Trump himself for this larger trend.  

Please save your kind words or benefits-of-doubt for someone who is not spinning the system in his own favor and making it exponentially worse for all of us. 

lord_pabulum said:

Sorry Dave, I didn't expect you to view things through Trump tinged glasses.  Anyway there were more hands raised, later on, as expected.

Who ... ?

Wha ... ?

Whare ... ?

The last time wasn’t about Trump.

Red_Barchetta said:
Please save your kind words or benefits-of-doubt for someone who is not spinning the system in his own favor and making it exponentially worse for all of us. 

how are those "kind words"?  I'm just pointing out that this parade was already underway, and Trump just ran to the front of it.

And once Trump is gone, all of that horribleness will still be with us.  He is a symptom, not a cause.

DaveSchmidt said:
Who ... ?
Wha ... ?
Whare ... ?
The last time wasn’t about Trump.

Last time?

ETA: Oh, the other thread, in that case:  I wouldn’t have expected you to see things through peado’d tinged glasses.  (My impression was obsessed parent’s living vicariously through their children)

ml1 said:
how are those "kind words"?  I'm just pointing out that this parade was already underway, and Trump just ran to the front of it.
And once Trump is gone, all of that horribleness will still be with us.  He is a symptom, not a cause.

 The same can be said of Adam Lanza, Dylann Roof, Dylan Klebold, Eric Harris, etc.

ml1 said:
 not just vigilante groups.  Any citizens who appoint themselves as surveillance or enforcement for the government.  What really keeps an authoritarian government in power is the fear among the citizens that they never know who is going to turn them over to the authorities.  If you can't trust any of your neighbors, how can anyone be free?  

 Yes, but usually this starts with repression.  The relationship with the government takes precedent over friendships and this undermines the trust inherent in society.  

The real risk to an authoritarian government is perpetual war, government overspending, out of control $$ printing, domestic spying, centralized executive powers, jailing of non-violent criminals, over-regulation,  etc.  

I'd add tribalism to that which may be what you're getting at.  The thought that those who disagree with my tribe are evil, should be silenced, hearing their opinions is the equivalent of violence thus it's ok to initiate violence against them, they are fascist, hitleresque, etc.

terp said:

max_weisenfeld said:
 When I refer to Trumpt's tendencies towards fascism, I refer to a use of of power and an increasingly open disregard for rule of law that I would assert without hesitation is unusual in the modern presidency, especially since 1945, and is completely unprecedented in peacetime.

Would you please be more precise?  The only thing that tends to be more imprecise than Trumps own rhetoric are the claims that he's a fascist or he's Hitler or he's a Russian agent or the like. 

 No.  My statement is clear and says exactly what I mean.  If you are having trouble understanding it, look elsewhere.

You simply don't like him.  Got it.  Thanks. 

terp said:
You simply don't like him.  Got it.  Thanks. 

 Sigh.... you simply don't get it and, reading this thread, I don't think you ever will.  Obviously, your opinion is your own but you have to understand that it isn't going to be very relevant to anyone else.

ditto.