The Rose Garden and White House happenings: Listening to voters’ concerns

Red_Barchetta said:

basil said:
By the way, Trump signing bibles is like the Pope signing condoms.

 If it was anyone other than Trump signing Bibles the evangelicals / republicans would be calling it blasphemy.  

 Actually, I was shocked at that behaviour. Maybe (only maybe) sign the inside, if it were a gift, or a very special occasion to be commemorated forever for using that Bible  as a reminder. But marking the cover in this way?? We're taught that's worse than vandalism, and is like a 'death' of the text, with the book needing to be buried. (Ideally, only pencil should be used if you need to mark a flyleaf or endpaper for a religious text never ink, in the strict Jewish tradition)

I think its safe to say that anything Trump touches should be burned for hygiene reasons. Only Robert Mueller really knows where that man's hands have been.

can we all agree this is a bipartisan goal?

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/10/us/politics/social-security-disability-trump-facebook.html

I love this picture.  The look of a man who has just soiled his adult undergarments and literally doesn't give a damn.

mtierney said:
can we all agree this is a bipartisan goal?
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/10/us/politics/social-security-disability-trump-facebook.html

yes, I suppose using social media to spy on people appeals to members of both parties.

ml1 said:

mtierney said:
can we all agree this is a bipartisan goal?
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/10/us/politics/social-security-disability-trump-facebook.html

yes, I suppose using social media to spy on people appeals to members of both parties.

oops.  As always, I should read the article instead of relying on mtierney's comment.  It appears it is NOT a bipartisan goal.  In the article, the proponents of using social media to spy on people collecting disability are Republicans, and those opposing are Democrats.

Of course.

ml1 said:

mtierney said:
can we all agree this is a bipartisan goal?
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/10/us/politics/social-security-disability-trump-facebook.html

yes, I suppose using social media to spy on people appeals to members of both parties.

My general view of social media is that you have to behave online as if you are doing it in person.

That goes for comments about other people, and also for personal information that you choose to reveal.

If you post a picture of yourself doing something, which the public can see, that's on you.  It's no different than going for a jog when your disability award says you need a walker.  If you're caught doing that, too bad.

ml1 said:
yes, I suppose using social media to spy on people appeals to members of both parties.

 Seems to me that stopping fraud, even by spying on cheats via social media, is a good thing. What is the downside for Democrats?

mtierney said:
 Seems to me that stopping fraud, even by spying on cheats via social media, is a good thing. What is the downside for Democrats?

 So, would you support stopping fraud by opening the President's tax returns? What's the downside for Republicans?

How does opening Trump's tax returns stop fraud?

lord_pabulum said:
How does opening Trump's tax returns stop fraud?

 There are articles galore on the ways in which Trump has cheated on his taxes.  Google is your friend.

Klinker said:

lord_pabulum said:
How does opening Trump's tax returns stop fraud?

 There are articles galore on the ways in which Trump has cheated on his taxes.  Google is your friend.

If Trump cheated on his taxes, how does that stop fraud?

Social Security is being mentioned frequently as endangered and I would think folks expecting a check at retirement would want to stop bleeding it dry with con artists on the take. What am I missing here? Or will Dems’ default position be No even if it hurts retirees in the future?

mtierney said:
Social Security is being mentioned frequently as endangered and I would think folks expecting a check at retirement would want to stop bleeding it dry with con artists on the take. What am I missing here? Or will Dems’ default position be No even if it hurts retirees in the future?

Combating fraud is generally a good ides.  But let's look at this quote in the article you posted, from a former commissioner of the Social Security Administration.  He's not in favor of scanning social media looking for cheats.

Michael J. Astrue, the last Senate-confirmed Social Security commissioner, has expressed misgivings about the idea.

“Social media sites are not exactly clear and reliable evidence,” Mr. Astrue, who stepped down six years ago, said at a Senate hearing in 2012. “Facebook puts up phony websites under my name all the time.”

That, he said, is “why you need professionally trained fraud investigators” to evaluate the information.

lord_pabulum said:

Klinker said:

lord_pabulum said:
How does opening Trump's tax returns stop fraud?

 There are articles galore on the ways in which Trump has cheated on his taxes.  Google is your friend.

If Trump cheated on his taxes, how does that stop fraud?

 Well, they sent Capone to Alcatraz for tax fraud.  Hopefully, some similarly suitable residence could be found for Trump, his sons, his daughter, etc, etc.... and their fates would serve as a deterrent to other scumbags thinking about cheating the people of the United States. 

nohero said:
My general view of social media is that you have to behave online as if you are doing it in person.
That goes for comments about other people, and also for personal information that you choose to reveal.
If you post a picture of yourself doing something, which the public can see, that's on you.  It's no different than going for a jog when your disability award says you need a walker.  If you're caught doing that, too bad.

so if a person is truly too disabled to hold a full-time job long term, but has a day now and then when they feel good, they better not post pictures of themselves on FB playing in the yard with the kids?

Klinker said:

lord_pabulum said:

Klinker said:

lord_pabulum said:
How does opening Trump's tax returns stop fraud?

 There are articles galore on the ways in which Trump has cheated on his taxes.  Google is your friend.

If Trump cheated on his taxes, how does that stop fraud?

 Well, they sent Capone to Alcatraz for tax fraud.  Hopefully, some similarly suitable residence could be found for Trump, his sons, his daughter, etc, etc.... and their fates would serve as a deterrent to other scumbags thinking about cheating the people of the United States. 

 Apparently Capone's incarceration for tax fraud hasn't acted as a deterrent then

ml1 said:
so if a person is truly too disabled to hold a full-time job long term, but has a day now and then when they feel good, they better not post pictures of themselves on FB playing in the yard with the kids?

 No, all I'm saying is that posting a public picture is no different than actually being in the yard.  If someone sees them in the yard, that's not proof of anything, just like a single picture isn't proof of anything.

nohero said:
 No, all I'm saying is that posting a public picture is no different than actually being in the yard.  If someone sees them in the yard, that's not proof of anything, just like a single picture isn't proof of anything.

 which is a good argument against the government trolling around on social media

ml1 said:

nohero said:
 No, all I'm saying is that posting a public picture is no different than actually being in the yard.  If someone sees them in the yard, that's not proof of anything, just like a single picture isn't proof of anything.

 which is a good argument against the government trolling around on social media

Again, I'll disagree.  If the social media activity raises the suspicion that the person may not be honest, calling for more investigation, that's entirely due to their own choice to put that out in public.

Klinker said:
 Well, they sent Capone to Alcatraz for tax fraud.  Hopefully, some similarly suitable residence could be found for Trump, his sons, his daughter, etc, etc.... and their fates would serve as a deterrent to other scumbags thinking about cheating the people of the United States. 

 Well we all know your default position is!

Must get tiring — trump/church — answe to every issue!

nohero said:

ml1 said:

nohero said:
 No, all I'm saying is that posting a public picture is no different than actually being in the yard.  If someone sees them in the yard, that's not proof of anything, just like a single picture isn't proof of anything.

 which is a good argument against the government trolling around on social media

Again, I'll disagree.  If the social media activity raises the suspicion that the person may not be honest, calling for more investigation, that's entirely due to their own choice to put that out in public.

 But is the whole concept likely to be cost effective?  First, you need to scan social media to find violators.  Then you need to conduct a proper investigation.  Then, you need, at least in some cases, go to court.

Would it not be more effective to offer a reward for turning in people abusing their disability benefits?

tjohn said:
 But is the whole concept likely to be cost effective?  First, you need to scan social media to find violators.  Then you need to conduct a proper investigation.  Then, you need, at least in some cases, go to court.
Would it not be more effective to offer a reward for turning in people abusing their disability benefits?

and my objection to it is that it's clear that it's not reliable evidence by itself, and then you'd be subjecting truly eligible people to defending themselves against spurious allegations.  And in some cases, legitimate recipients might get their benefits taken away.

There seems to be an assumption that lots of people are scamming SS to receive disability payments.  But I don't know of any evidence that this is a widespread problem.  Certainly not enough evidence that we should be assigning bureaucrats the job of scanning for photos on Twitter or Instagram.

tjohn said:

nohero said:

ml1 said:

nohero said:
 No, all I'm saying is that posting a public picture is no different than actually being in the yard.  If someone sees them in the yard, that's not proof of anything, just like a single picture isn't proof of anything.

 which is a good argument against the government trolling around on social media

Again, I'll disagree.  If the social media activity raises the suspicion that the person may not be honest, calling for more investigation, that's entirely due to their own choice to put that out in public.

 But is the whole concept likely to be cost effective?  First, you need to scan social media to find violators.  Then you need to conduct a proper investigation.  Then, you need, at least in some cases, go to court.
Would it not be more effective to offer a reward for turning in people abusing their disability benefits?

Two thoughts:

1.  I wasn't taking a position on whether it's cost effective, or the best way to do this.  I was just commenting on whether it was "spying", since the person is voluntarily presenting themselves in public, albeit online.

2.  They do offer rewards, as I understand it, or at least have "tip lines".  I know they have insurance fraud hotlines, for example.

ml1 said:
and my objection to it is that it's clear that it's not reliable evidence by itself, and then you'd be subjecting truly eligible people to defending themselves against spurious allegations.  And in some cases, legitimate recipients might get their benefits taken away.
There seems to be an assumption that lots of people are scamming SS to receive disability payments.  But I don't know of any evidence that this is a widespread problem.  Certainly not enough evidence that we should be assigning bureaucrats the job of scanning for photos on Twitter or Instagram.

My understanding is that we we could just eliminate waste and fraud from federal spending, we would actually be running a surplus and could afford unicorns for all of our children.

nohero said:

tjohn said:

nohero said:

ml1 said:

nohero said:
 No, all I'm saying is that posting a public picture is no different than actually being in the yard.  If someone sees them in the yard, that's not proof of anything, just like a single picture isn't proof of anything.

 which is a good argument against the government trolling around on social media

Again, I'll disagree.  If the social media activity raises the suspicion that the person may not be honest, calling for more investigation, that's entirely due to their own choice to put that out in public.

 But is the whole concept likely to be cost effective?  First, you need to scan social media to find violators.  Then you need to conduct a proper investigation.  Then, you need, at least in some cases, go to court.
Would it not be more effective to offer a reward for turning in people abusing their disability benefits?

Two thoughts:
1.  I wasn't taking a position on whether it's cost effective, or the best way to do this.  I was just commenting on whether it was "spying", since the person is voluntarily presenting themselves in public, albeit online.
2.  They do offer rewards, as I understand it, or at least have "tip lines".  I know they have insurance fraud hotlines, for example.

If the basis of our disagreement is over my use of the word "spying," then I'll admit it's not that.  I should have used a term like "monitoring" or "checking out."

might be helpful to read up on what qualifies people for disability.  

https://www.ssa.gov/planners/disability/qualify.html#anchor3

Long Waits And Long Odds For Those Who Need Social Security Disability

It's apparently especially difficult for those who have real disabilities that are not apparent by looking at them.

I think we are reading this the wrong way.  When I, as a politician, say I am going to go after people cheating on disability, it's a red meat issue.  Of first glance, who can disagree.  It's only after you dig into the details that you realize it is not so simple as it sounds.  However, it is now going to be an exhausting exercise to hold back the torch and pitchfork crowd going after the cheaters.  

It's like border security.  To hear Trump talk, you would think our border is an open door. In reality, crossing the border illegal has been getting harder and harder over the years and it has been a long time since we had an unsecured border.

tjohn said:
I think we are reading this the wrong way.  When I, as a politician, say I am going to go after people cheating on disability, it's a red meat issue.  Of first glance, who can disagree.  It's only after you dig into the details that you realize it is not so simple as it sounds.  However, it is now going to be an exhausting exercise to hold back the torch and pitchfork crowd going after the cheaters.  
It's like border security.  To hear Trump talk, you would think our border is an open door. In reality, crossing the border illegal has been getting harder and harder over the years and it has been a long time since we had an unsecured border.

 https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration