Who Meddled more Putin or Trump? The Collusion Thread visits Venezuela
Dem memo makes odd claim that Steele's reporting to FBI began in September (first image). Fusion head Simpson testified that it began in early July (second image).
Former NYT reporter Judith Miller who reported lies about Iraq WMDs, now warning Americans about Russian threat (on Fox).
Republican rebuttal of Democratic memo:
https://intelligence.house.gov/uploadedfiles/democrat_memo_charge_and_response.pdf
Thomas Frank, author of "What’s the Matter With Kansas?" and "Listen, Liberal: or, What Ever Happened to the Party of the People?":
Excerpt:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/feb/23/russian-bots-us-election-coup-d-etat
The hysteria over Russian bots has reached new levels
Pundits and Democrats ascribe to a handful of bargain-basement Russian trolls all manner of ability – including orchestrating a coup d’etat
Fri 23 Feb 2018 05.00 EST Last modified on Fri 23 Feb 2018 12.43 EST
The grand total for all political ad spending in the 2016 election cycle, according to Advertising Age, was $9.8bn. The ads allegedly produced by inmates of a Russian troll farm, which have made up this week’s ration of horror and panic in the halls of the American punditburo, cost about $100,000 to place on Facebook.
A few months ago, when I first described those Russian ads in this space, I invited readers to laugh at them. They were “low-budget stuff, ugly, loud and stupid”, I wrote. They interested me because they cast the paranoid right, instead of the left, as dupes of a foreign power. And yet, I wrote, the American commentariat had largely overlooked them.
Now that Robert Mueller’s office has indicted the Russian actors who are allegedly behind the ads, however, all that has changed. American pundits have gone from zero to 60 on this matter in no time at all – from ignoring the Facebook posts to outright hysteria over them.
Three tweets by Aaron Mate of The Real News on what Manafort was doing in the Ukraine:
https://twitter.com/27khv/status/967817082388860928
paulsurovell said:
Thomas Frank, author of "What’s the Matter With Kansas?" and "Listen, Liberal: or, What Ever Happened to the Party of the People?":
Excerpt:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/feb/23/russian-bots-us-election-coup-d-etat
The hysteria over Russian bots has reached new levelsPundits and Democrats ascribe to a handful of bargain-basement Russian trolls all manner of ability – including orchestrating a coup d’etatFri 23 Feb 2018 05.00 EST Last modified on Fri 23 Feb 2018 12.43 ESTThe grand total for all political ad spending in the 2016 election cycle, according to Advertising Age, was $9.8bn. The ads allegedly produced by inmates of a Russian troll farm, which have made up this week’s ration of horror and panic in the halls of the American punditburo, cost about $100,000 to place on Facebook.A few months ago, when I first described those Russian ads in this space, I invited readers to laugh at them. They were “low-budget stuff, ugly, loud and stupid”, I wrote. They interested me because they cast the paranoid right, instead of the left, as dupes of a foreign power. And yet, I wrote, the American commentariat had largely overlooked them.Now that Robert Mueller’s office has indicted the Russian actors who are allegedly behind the ads, however, all that has changed. American pundits have gone from zero to 60 on this matter in no time at all – from ignoring the Facebook posts to outright hysteria over them.
It seems Thomas Frank, notable voice of reason, can only get a job writing for the Guardian, not an American paper. Establishment media outlets require "zero to 60" on propaganda featuring a cartoon Bernie Sanders with his shirt off. Seriously, there were talking heads on MSNBC calling for WWIII over this nonsense.
Everyone can probably agree to ignore Judith Miller.
paulsurovell said:
Former NYT reporter Judith Miller who reported lies about Iraq WMDs, now warning Americans about Russian threat (on Fox).
I read to the end, and the argument is that Steele's work shouldn't be relied on since nobody from Russia should be trusted. So I guess they were interfering. Which would mean the Russians who say there was interference were telling the truth. But we can't trust anyone from Russia. And maybe the whole point of the arguments is to create confusion and Trump gets off the hook.
paulsurovell said:
nohero said:
paulsurovell said:Both stories are "developing", as we say, but one could speculate.
Two legal developments on the two sides of the collusion story:
(1) Former Trump campaign official is imminently expected to plead guilty to tax violations
(2) David Kramer, who delivered the Steele dossier to John McCain in 2016, and who is also an official of the parent organization of the bogus Russian bot monitor Hamilton68, has invoked the Fifth Amendment in response to a House Intelligence committee subpoena to answer questions about the Steele dossier, according to Fox News.
Re: (2) - Do we know what he's said to investigators already, or know what the questions were that he was asked? Do we know if he was asked about Carter Page (since that's the only topic which would be related to the FISA dueling memos saga)? Do we know where this could be going, if anywhere?
According to the Byron York piece below, written in late December, the committee's interest in Kramer goes beyond Carter Page and the FISA memo:
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/byron-york-mccain-associate-subpoenaed-in-trump-dossier-probe/article/2644460?platform=hootsuite
OPINIONByron York: McCain associate subpoenaed in Trump dossier probeby Byron York | Dec 27, 2017, 2:59 PM
House Intelligence Committee chairman Devin Nunes has issued a subpoena to David Kramer, a former State Department official who, in late November 2016, traveled to London to receive a briefing and a copy of the Trump dossier from its author, former British spy Christopher Steele. Kramer then returned to the U.S. to give the document to Sen. John McCain.Kramer is a senior fellow at the McCain Institute for International Leadership at Arizona State University.McCain later took a copy of the dossier to the FBI's then-director, James Comey. But the FBI already had the document; Steele himself gave the dossier to the bureau in installments, reportedly beginning in early July 2016.McCain, recovering in Arizona from treatments for cancer, has long refused to detail his actions regarding the dossier. For his part, Kramer was interviewed by the House Intelligence Committee on Dec. 19. The new subpoena stems from statements Kramer made in that interview.In the session, Kramer told House investigators that he knew the identities of the Russian sources for the allegations in Steele's dossier. But when investigators pressed Kramer to reveal those names, he declined to do so.Now, he is under subpoena. The subpoena, issued Wednesday afternoon, directs Kramer to appear again before House investigators on Jan. 11.Knowing Steele's sources is a critical part of the congressional dossier investigation, for both sides. If one argues the document is unverified and never will be, it is critical to learn the identity of the sources to support that conclusion. If one argues the document is the whole truth, or largely true, knowing sources is equally critical.Beyond that, there is another reason to know Steele's sources, and that is to learn not just the origin of the dossier but its place in the larger Trump-Russia affair. There is a growing belief among some congressional investigators that the Russians who provided information to Steele were using Steele to disrupt the American election as much as the Russians who distributed hacked Democratic Party emails. In some investigators' views, they are the two sides of the Trump-Russia project, both aimed at sowing chaos and discord in the American political system.Investigators who favor this theory ask a sensible question: Is it likely that all the Russians involved in the attempt to influence the 2016 election were lying, scheming, Kremlin-linked, Putin-backed enemies of America – except the Russians who talked to Christopher Steele?On the other hand, the theory is still just a theory, for now. And that is one reason House investigators seek Steele's sources – and why they will try to compel Kramer to talk.
I scrolled back in the thread and read where you brought this up here about 2 months ago. It wasn't much of a point back then, either.
paulsurovell said:
With regard to Mueller, in case Cramer, our devoted informer of @paulsurovell tweets missed this, this morning I tweeted the following response to Rep Swalwell's description of Mueller as "the best of America":
Mueller obstructed the 911 investigation and misled Americans on Iraq WMDs. He betrayed the fallen of 911 and bears responsibility for deaths of thousands of Americans, serious injuries to hundreds of thousands and trillions of dollars wasted in Iraq. Not the best of America.
South_Mountaineer said:
I scrolled back in the thread and read where you brought this up here about 2 months ago. It wasn't much of a point back then, either.
paulsurovell said:
With regard to Mueller, in case Cramer, our devoted informer of @paulsurovell tweets missed this, this morning I tweeted the following response to Rep Swalwell's description of Mueller as "the best of America":
Mueller obstructed the 911 investigation and misled Americans on Iraq WMDs. He betrayed the fallen of 911 and bears responsibility for deaths of thousands of Americans, serious injuries to hundreds of thousands and trillions of dollars wasted in Iraq. Not the best of America.
Only if you think obstruction of the 911 investigation and promotion of the WMD lies are not indicators of where Mueller's loyalties lie.
Andrew McCarthy's detailed commentary on the Dem memo:
In his detailed critique of the Dem memo, Byron York makes this salient point:
Speaking of McCabe, a big controversy surrounding the original Republican memo was the assertion that McCabe "testified before the committee in December 2017 that no surveillance warrant would have been sought from the [FISA court] without the Steele dossier information." Democrats immediately denounced that statement as false. "He didn't say that," Intelligence Committee member Eric Swalwell told CNN on the day the Republican memo was released.
Now, however, the Democratic memo makes no statement one way or the other about McCabe's assertion. Does that mean, then, that the Republican memo accurately characterized what McCabe said? Without the interview transcript, it's impossible to say. But it does mean that in their official, considered rebuttal, Democrats are not challenging it.
Paul - would you feel more at ease with Flynn, Manafort, Papadopoulos, Carter Page and Gates running the White House?
Do you have any idea of intelligence Steel supplied the FBI in the past and could be the reason they trust his lead? What in the dossier has been dis-proven?
I meant where you claimed "obstruction of the 911 investigation and promotion of the WMD lies" wasn't much of a point, and it hasn't improved with age. Like I said, the discussion when you argued that the first time is about two months earlier on this thread.
paulsurovell said:
South_Mountaineer said:
I scrolled back in the thread and read where you brought this up here about 2 months ago. It wasn't much of a point back then, either.
paulsurovell said:
With regard to Mueller, in case Cramer, our devoted informer of @paulsurovell tweets missed this, this morning I tweeted the following response to Rep Swalwell's description of Mueller as "the best of America":
Mueller obstructed the 911 investigation and misled Americans on Iraq WMDs. He betrayed the fallen of 911 and bears responsibility for deaths of thousands of Americans, serious injuries to hundreds of thousands and trillions of dollars wasted in Iraq. Not the best of America.
Only if you think obstruction of the 911 investigation and promotion of the WMD lies are not indicators of where Mueller's loyalties lie.
jamie said:
Paul - would you feel more at ease with Flynn, Manafort, Papadopoulos, Carter Page and Gates running the White House?
Do you have any idea of intelligence Steel supplied the FBI in the past and could be the reason they trust his lead? What in the dossier has been dis-proven?
What do those people have to do with running the White House?
Andrew McCabe is quoted as saying they would not have asked for the FISA warrant absent the dossier. Democratic Congressmen now claim that's not what he said.There was a footnote regarding that comment.Why didn't they mention that in the memo?
BTW Steele was fired by the FBI for leaking information.Apparently their trust in him only extends so far and when you make a statement you are expected to back it up. There is no need to disprove a negative
You might also find this interesting.
http://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/375560-democrats-fisa-memo-doesnt-refute-gop-charges
WTF cares. Steele had a good reputation as a somewhat reliable source and he had and probably still has an incentive to provide good information. On top of that, people are acting like Trump is some defenseless fall guy being found guilty by some kangaroo court on bad evidence. Jeez. It was a warrant to do more investigating. And there is an increasing body of evidence suggesting that a bit more investigation was, in fact, warranted.
tjohn said:
WTF cares. Steele had a good reputation as a somewhat reliable source and he had and probably still has an incentive to provide good information. On top of that, people are acting like Trump is some defenseless fall guy being found guilty by some kangaroo court on bad evidence. Jeez. It was a warrant to do more investigating. And there is an increasing body of evidence suggesting that a bit more investigation was, in fact, warranted.
On Steele's "good reputation" --
Steele was paid to get dirt on Trump from anonymous Russians to serve the interests of Trump's political opponent. The FBI was aware that his dossier was not a professional intelligence product which is why they did not inform the FISA court of its nature and purpose.
Paul,
Can you send over some of the tin foil you use. I want to see if I can experience your world where everything is a conspiracy and people are permanently embittered because their false Messiah Sanders didn't get the Democratic nomination.
Just to sum up. Who was Steele, again?
tjohn said:
Steele had a good reputation as a somewhat reliable source and he had and probably still has an incentive to provide good information.
So, does that mean he's someone who would get hired by people who wanted to find out information about someone's business in Russia?
paulsurovell said:
Steele was paid to get dirt on Trump from anonymous Russians to serve the interests of Trump's political opponent.
That's really all there is to all of that.
tjohn said:
Paul,
Can you send over some of the tin foil you use. I want to see if I can experience your world where everything is a conspiracy and people are permanently embittered because their false Messiah Sanders didn't get the Democratic nomination.
Did you even read this thread before posting that uninformed and nasty remark? What does the world look like for you where everything runs by the rules and your false Messiah Clinton did not have a secret deal with the DNC and campaigned in Wisconsin and would have won the election if not for the 13 FB posters posting one pro-Jill Stein post and another of Bernie with his shirt off? Oh, and she really won the election too.
BCC said:
You might also find this interesting.
http://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/375560-democrats-fisa-memo-doesnt-refute-gop-charges
Where have you been? I haven't seen a post from you for many months.
jamie said:
What parts of the dossier have been dis-proven?
You need to turn the question around and ask, Which parts have been proven?
tjohn said:
Paul,
Can you send over some of the tin foil you use. I want to see if I can experience your world where everything is a conspiracy and people are permanently embittered because their false Messiah Sanders didn't get the Democratic nomination.
The funny thing is that you choose to see "conspiracy" in an effort to challenge the bonkers, conspiratorial, narrative that Donald Trump is an agent of Vladimir Putin.
On Sanders, you have no idea what my views were or are now about Sanders, but that's for another time.
paulsurovell said:
jamie said:You need to turn the question around and ask, Which parts have been proven?
What parts of the dossier have been dis-proven?
Patience grasshopper. You have no idea of the classified material behind - it will be revealed in time.
You're so anxious in winning the debate - you're letting all of the bad guys get a pass while the process is still ongoing. Let Mueller do his job - I know you're anxious to discredit him and give the Trump team a pass - but give it another month.
And please discredit Hillary more - that's what this thread is alive for you to prove after all.
jamie said:
paulsurovell said:
jamie said:You need to turn the question around and ask, Which parts have been proven?
What parts of the dossier have been dis-proven?
Patience grasshopper. You have no idea of the classified material behind - it will be revealed in time.
You're so anxious in winning the debate - you're letting all of the bad guys get a pass while the process is still ongoing. Let Mueller do his job - I know you're anxious to discredit him and give the Trump team a pass - but give it another month.
And please discredit Hillary more - that's what this thread is alive for you to prove after all.
I respectfully disagree.
No, Jamie has it right. It's backwards to say, "Allegation hasn't been proven, so there's no reason to investigate."
I know you don't like it when your "logic" like that is called "Hannity-like" or "Trump defending", but that's what it is.
paulsurovell said:
jamie said:
What parts of the dossier have been dis-proven?
You need to turn the question around and ask, Which parts have been proven?
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According to the Politico article on the Memo's release, at the same time Nunes is making a speech at CPAC accusing the Democrats with colluding with the United States Government!!!!