Who Meddled more Putin or Trump? The Collusion Thread visits Venezuela
Here's a cat that flew out of the bag a few weeks ago, but came back for a visit this weekend:
cramer said:
Paul has been defending Flynn from the time that Trump fired him. He said the only reason that Trump fired Flynn was because of the Democrats and the media. He wanted to see the transcript of the conversation between Flynn and Kislyak before he could believe that Flynn lied.
Sally Yates details meetings with White House on Flynn:
A good illustration of why it's not plausible that Mueller would not inform the Congress if he had evidence that Trump was under the control of or being blackmailed by Putin.
paulsurovell said:
Here's a cat that flew out of the bag a few weeks ago, but came back for a visit this weekend:
Dear Cowboys,
The above post is what we call in the Midwest "pointing out a different tumbleweed". It's a classic gallopin' technique that is designed to get folks to find a new route to Nowheresville. Just thought I would point it out in case any of you haven't been to the Midwest or have perhaps lost your maps on this inane adventure.
You're welcome pardners!
Saddle up!
paulsurovell said:
dave23 said:Here is the FBI memo on Flynn's interview in which he allegedly lied. The memo was let out of the bag yesterday.
paulsurovell said:I won't be disappointed by the truth.
dave23 said:The cat is already out of the bag and you're going to be disappointed. Details to follow.
Happy Flynn Sentencing Day! We still don't know why he lied about his contacts and conversations with Kislyak.
Keep in mind that the agents who interviewed him stated that he did not appear to be lying. The accusation of lying came later, after Mueller had begun his investigation.
The most likely explanation of Flynn's guilty plea seems to be to avoid prosecution for failing to register as a foreign agent (Turkey). Otherwise he likely would have pleaded not guilty to the accusation of lying.
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/5633264-12-17-18-Redacted-Flynn-Interview-302.html?platform=hootsuite
No matter how he looked, he lied. If he didn't plead guilty, there was proof of what he had discussed with Kislyak.
The judge seems to be expecting that Flynn will be providing more "Russigate" cooperation, to deserve the "no jail time" and not getting indicted over his work for Turkey.
sbenois said:
paulsurovell said:
Here's a cat that flew out of the bag a few weeks ago, but came back for a visit this weekend:
Dear Cowboys,
The above post is what we call in the Midwest "pointing out a different tumbleweed". It's a classic gallopin' technique that is designed to get folks to find a new route to Nowheresville. Just thought I would point it out in case any of you haven't been to the Midwest or have perhaps lost your maps on this inane adventure.
You're welcome pardners!
Saddle up!
You know McClatchy said that Mueller has proof that Cohen was in Prague.
And the Guardian said that Manafort met with Assange three times in the Ecuadorian embassy.
I'll bet you believe both of these hoaxes.
Right?
paulsurovell said:
sbenois said:You know McClatchy said that Mueller has proof that Cohen was in Prague.
paulsurovell said:
Here's a cat that flew out of the bag a few weeks ago, but came back for a visit this weekend:
Dear Cowboys,
The above post is what we call in the Midwest "pointing out a different tumbleweed". It's a classic gallopin' technique that is designed to get folks to find a new route to Nowheresville. Just thought I would point it out in case any of you haven't been to the Midwest or have perhaps lost your maps on this inane adventure.
You're welcome pardners!
Saddle up!
And the Guardian said that Manafort met with Assange three times in the Ecuadorian embassy.
I'll bet you believe both of these hoaxes.
Right?
Folks, the above post is what we call in the Midwest "shoot, he ain't interested in the new tumbleweed so let me see if I can convince him that it's a nice one".
In other words, this is the part of the gallop where our UI gets frustrated that the deflection hasn't worked so he's going to try a bit harder to get the hook in and take this lunacy in a new direction.
Ain't happening.
paulsurovell said:
You know McClatchy said that Mueller has proof that Cohen was in Prague.
The necessity of parsing the above description is, like previous parsing, open to dispute. Strictly speaking, however, McClatchy reported that Mueller had evidence, not proof.
WASHINGTON — The Justice Department special counsel has evidence that Donald Trump’s personal lawyer and confidant, Michael Cohen, secretly made a late-summer trip to Prague during the 2016 presidential campaign, according to two sources familiar with the matter.
DaveSchmidt said:
paulsurovell said:The necessity of parsing the above description is, like previous parsing, open to dispute. Strictly speaking, however, McClatchy reported that Mueller had evidence, not proof.
You know McClatchy said that Mueller has proof that Cohen was in Prague.
WASHINGTON — The Justice Department special counsel has evidence that Donald Trump’s personal lawyer and confidant, Michael Cohen, secretly made a late-summer trip to Prague during the 2016 presidential campaign, according to two sources familiar with the matter.
Point taken. Perhaps the "evidence" is the Steele dossier?
paulsurovell said:
dave23 said:The cat is already out of the bag and you're going to be disappointed. Details to follow.
Happy Flynn Sentencing Day! We still don't know why he lied about his contacts and conversations with Kislyak.
I do believe Paul watches Fox - especially the last 30 second of this video - perhaps that's what we were supposed to be disappointed in?
More lies re Russia revealed. Trump did sign a letter of intent for Trump Tower in Moscow.
dave23 said:
More lies re Russia revealed. Trump did sign a letter of intent for Trump Tower in Moscow.
http://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2018/images/12/18/attachment.1.pdf
From Donald Jr.'s testimony to the Senate Judiciary, September 7, 2017:
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/4464062-Donald-Trump-Jr-Senate-Judiciary-Committee.html
p 174
1 A. I do not.
2 Q. Do you know if had owned any condominiums
3 in Trump Soho?
4 A. He may, but I don't know.
5 Q. You mentioned a Moscow project that didn't
6 come into never came to fruition with Mr. Sater
7 in 2006 I think you said?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. Was there ever another effort by Mr. Sater
10 to bring together a development in Moscow?
11 A. I believe in 2015 he worked on something
12 to that effect with Mike Cohen .
13 Q. And Mike Cohen is counsel at the Trump
14 Organization?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. Tell us about that . How did that -- do
17 you know anything about that deal?
18 A. Very little.
19 Q. What do you know about it?
20 A. I know that it got to an LOI and that ' s
21 about the extent of it .
22 Q. Do you know who signed the LOI? An LOI is
23 letter of intent?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. Do you know who signed it?
p 175
1 A. I believe my father signed it.
2 Q. On behalf of the Trump Organization?
3 A. Yes .
4 Q. Do you know who the counterparties were?
5 A. I don't.
6 Q. Was Bayrock involved in that one ?
7 A. I don't believe so .
8 Q. Do you have any idea who was the potential
9 counter party on that deal ?
10 A. I don 't, no .
11 Q. But it was somebody connected to Felix
12 Sater?
13 A. I don't know if they're connected t o Felix
14 Sater or if they knew Felix. He was involved as a
15 broker. I don't know if he's a principal. I
16 wasn't involved .
17 Q. I presume the Trump Organization still has
18 the letter of intent?
19 A. I would imagine .
20 Q. Is that something you could produce to he
21 Committee if we needed to see that?
22 A. I don't see why not. I'll check with
23 counsel .
24 Q. It' s been reported I believe on CNN that
25 Mr. Cohen had reached out to an e-mail box at the
[ . . . ]
Giuliani: "There was a letter of intent to go forward, but no one signed it.”
dave23 said:
Giuliani: "There was a letter of intent to go forward, but no one signed it.”
Not smart to lie about something Don Jr. testified to under oath more than a year ago.
paulsurovell said:
dave23 said:Not smart to lie about something Don Jr. testified to under oath more than a year ago.
Giuliani: "There was a letter of intent to go forward, but no one signed it.”
And Trump repeatedly said he didn't have any business dealings there.
dave23 said:
paulsurovell said:And Trump repeatedly said he didn't have any business dealings there.
dave23 said:Not smart to lie about something Don Jr. testified to under oath more than a year ago.
Giuliani: "There was a letter of intent to go forward, but no one signed it.”
I guess it depends on what the meaning of "is", I mean "have" is.
Seems like Putin is very happy with our withdrawal from Syria. Trump is also looking to remove sanctions from Deripaska. I guess this is all part of normalizing our relations with Russia?
The official word on the Deripaska sanctions is that the three companies Mnuchin wants to lift sanctions on have severed ties with Deripaska, though he still owns a significant (but not controlling) stake in them. At least that's what I gleaned from a quick glance at the story yesterday.
jamie said:
Seems like Putin is very happy with our withdrawal from Syria. Trump is also looking to remove sanctions from Deripaska. I guess this is all part of normalizing our relations with Russia?
Putin is very happy with the Iran nuclear deal and the Paris Accord. Does that mean we should pull out?
I only commented on Syria - would love to know your take on the decision - and maybe comment why Putin might be in favor of us not being there.
paulsurovell said:
jamie said:Putin is very happy with the Iran nuclear deal and the Paris Accord. Does that mean we should pull out?
Seems like Putin is very happy with our withdrawal from Syria. Trump is also looking to remove sanctions from Deripaska. I guess this is all part of normalizing our relations with Russia?
No. Different circumstances and different benefits for Russia.
dave23 said:
paulsurovell said:And Trump repeatedly said he didn't have any business dealings there.
dave23 said:Not smart to lie about something Don Jr. testified to under oath more than a year ago.
Giuliani: "There was a letter of intent to go forward, but no one signed it.”
We had a prior exchange (December 11, 2018 11:55 am) in which you itemized Trump's statements on his Moscow investments, and I gave my opinion on each. Here it is again:
dave23 said:
paulsurovell said:It's hard to tell if you are being willfully obtuse or really don't follow the news. But here goes nothing. A sampling:dave23 said: Your turn. Why did he lie about that?If we're going to have a rational discussion you have to tell me what you're talking about. Edited to Add: Surely you can come up with at least one quote that you had in mind.
- Felix Sater worked for years on getting a Trump Tower in Moscow
- Dec 2, 2015. Trump: “Felix Sater, boy, I have to even think about it. I’m not familiar with him."
The only photo of them together in the link that's dated is from 2007. The other photos look even older. If they had an ongoing relationship there should be a more recent photo. On the other hand, if the question was "Do you know Felix Sater?" he probably lied, because Trump signed the letter-of-intent for the proposed Moscow Trump Tower in 2015.
dave23 said: Trump said multiple times throughout the campaign the did not have nor seek a business relationship in Russia. Just one quote (from Feb 2017): I have nothing to do with Russia. Haven’t made a phone call to Russia in years. Don’t speak to people from Russia. I have nothing to do with Russia. To the best of my knowledge, no person that I deal with does.”
Probably true. The only "deal" (Moscow Trump Tower) was gone by June 2016. No one has said Trump ever made a phone call to Russia.
dave23 said:
- July 26 2016: Trump tweeted “For the record, I have ZERO investments in Russia.”
True.
dave23 said: July 27 2016: He said, “What do I have to do with Russia? You know the closest I came to Russia, I bought a house a number of years ago in Palm Beach.”
Not sure what this means. A joke? Otherwise probably true.
dave23 said: Nov. 29, 2018: After Cohen pleads guilty, Trump says: “He’s lying about a project that everybody knew about. I mean, we were very open with it. … This deal was a very public deal. Everybody knows about this deal. I wasn’t trying to hide anything.” And “I wasn’t trying to hide anything. We decided — I decided ultimately not to do it. There would have been nothing wrong if I did do it.”
His lawyers later said that Cohen's pleading was consistent with Trump's answers to Mueller. I'm not sure how "public" the deal was but the rest of his statement is true.
dave23 said:
So why all the lies about Sater and the hoped-for Trump Tower?
Looks like he lied if he said he didn't know who Sater was. Nothing much else.
South_Mountaineer said:
paulsurovell said:No. Different circumstances and different benefits for Russia.
jamie said:Putin is very happy with the Iran nuclear deal and the Paris Accord. Does that mean we should pull out?
Seems like Putin is very happy with our withdrawal from Syria. Trump is also looking to remove sanctions from Deripaska. I guess this is all part of normalizing our relations with Russia?
Then you agree that "Putin is very happy" is not a reason to keep US troops in Syria?
Do you want to keep US troops in Syria for other reasons? If so, what are they?
jamie said:
I only commented on Syria - would love to know your take on the decision - and maybe comment why Putin might be in favor of us not being there.
I think I've opined before that I'm against wars to overthrow governments that have not attacked us (regime-change wars), like the war in Syria. That's why I was against the invasion of Iraq.
Putin supports the government of Syria, so he is also against a regime-change war there. He was also against the war in Iraq. If I'm not mistaken, so were you.
paulsurovell said:
South_Mountaineer said:Then you agree that "Putin is very happy" is not a reason to keep US troops in Syria?
paulsurovell said:No. Different circumstances and different benefits for Russia.
jamie said:Putin is very happy with the Iran nuclear deal and the Paris Accord. Does that mean we should pull out?
Seems like Putin is very happy with our withdrawal from Syria. Trump is also looking to remove sanctions from Deripaska. I guess this is all part of normalizing our relations with Russia?
Do you want to keep US troops in Syria for other reasons? If so, what are they?
You asked, "Putin is very happy with the Iran nuclear deal and the Paris Accord. Does that mean we should pull out?" My response was "No" with my explanation. Your "Then you agree" statement doesn't logically follow from that. I hope that clears up any confusion.
South_Mountaineer said:
paulsurovell said:You asked, "Putin is very happy with the Iran nuclear deal and the Paris Accord. Does that mean we should pull out?" My response was "No" with my explanation. Your "Then you agree" statement doesn't logically follow from that. I hope that clears up any confusion.
South_Mountaineer said:Then you agree that "Putin is very happy" is not a reason to keep US troops in Syria?
paulsurovell said:No. Different circumstances and different benefits for Russia.
jamie said:Putin is very happy with the Iran nuclear deal and the Paris Accord. Does that mean we should pull out?
Seems like Putin is very happy with our withdrawal from Syria. Trump is also looking to remove sanctions from Deripaska. I guess this is all part of normalizing our relations with Russia?
Do you want to keep US troops in Syria for other reasons? If so, what are they?
If you read carefully, my "Then you agree" does follow the logic of your response. However what needs more clarification is do you support US troops in Syria and why?
Here's a report on Putin's press conference yesterday. A reminder that we have mutual interests that Putin is willing to work on with us. The worst consequence of Russiagate is that it makes this work impossible -- at our own peril.
paulsurovell said:
South_Mountaineer said:If you read carefully, my "Then you agree" does follow the logic of your response. However what needs more clarification is do you support US troops in Syria and why?
You asked, "Putin is very happy with the Iran nuclear deal and the Paris Accord. Does that mean we should pull out?" My response was "No" with my explanation. Your "Then you agree" statement doesn't logically follow from that. I hope that clears up any confusion.
I did read carefully. Your assumption doesn't follow the logic of my response at all. For that reason I'm not going to write a response to your general question, "However what needs more clarification is do you support US troops in Syria and why?"
Paul has been defending Flynn from the time that Trump fired him. He said the only reason that Trump fired Flynn was because of the Democrats and the media. He wanted to see the transcript of the conversation between Flynn and Kislyak before he could believe that Flynn lied.
Sally Yates details meetings with White House on Flynn: