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Terry
Discussion: 2020 - Candidates
nan said:


Smedley said:
 I’m not debating climate science here but I do disagree that there’s any chance at all of Green New Deal being a winning issue in a mere year and a half’s time. Any candidate who takes an “it’s an emergency and not negotiable” stance might mean well but that candidate will be eviscerated by Trump next November.
OK, it was nice knowing you.  

 I´ll take an eeeeeevil centrist Democrat who will reverse Trump´s corporations-first climate non-policy and move forward with sensible, achievable steps to address climate change, possibly leading up to a Green New Deal type legislation in years ahead....who can win in 2020. 

Over some principled yet pie-in-the-sky candidate who´s all code-red emergency, non-negotiable, must have GND now...who would almost assuredly get blown out of the water in 2020. Which would mean 4 more years of corporations-first climate non-policy.  

Or as Voltaire might say with regard to climate change policy and the 2020 election, the best is the enemy of the good. 

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jimmurphy
Discussion: Bernie Formally Announces 2020 Campaign He Began in August 2016.

Honestly Nan, what is your goal here?


I don’t dislike Bernie at all, but if anything I like him less based upon your attack-dog approach to every candidate not named Bernie or Tulsi. 


Must we eat our own? Or is this all just entertainment for you? Nothing else to do but attack? So tiresome.

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ml1
Discussion: Note Dame is burning

these are photos I took in April, 2008


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Dennis
Discussion: 2020 - Candidates
nan said:


jamie said:
Last time there was a very undeserved hatred of Hillary - we don’t anything close to that with the current candidates. So the comparison is unjustified- but it’s a great talking point for anyone but Bernie.
 No, there has been a war on Progressives, starting with Obama's stupid "circular firing squad" remark that calls people who want to save the planet ridgid, murderous, purists.  Neera Tandan at CAP is a Hillary operative, so this is clearly more of the establishment attacking Progressives.  Cause they would rather have Trump than Bernie and save their careers.  I posted about this on the Bernie thread, but I will post his letter to CAP here.  He gives examples of what they did to him, Elizabeth Warren and Cory Booker.  
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/5839898-Bernie-Sanders-Letter-Accusing-CAP-of.html
The attack on Progressives is real and they are not getting treated the same as other candidates on the mainstream news.  Hopefully voters pay closer attention this time.  

 Actually, nan, there is no problem here with progressives, even Bernie. The problem is YOU, and your unrelenting attacks on any legit Dem candidate, not named Bernie. Lighten up Louise,  and maybe we'll actually listen to you. But if you continue this jihad against the Dem party, you'll go nowhere.

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Ridley
Discussion: What is being said in the Rose Garden? What's happening in Washington?
Robert_Casotto said:
illegal. as in unlawful.  as in not permitted. as in against the law.


Even my six year old understands the distinction.

 Sanctuary, as in if an undocumented immigrant is raped, she can report it to the police without fear of being arrested and deported. It’s a 5th Amendment right. Not sure if your 6 year old has got that far in their civics class yet.

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Basil
Discussion: 2020 - Candidates
nan said:


Basil compared me to the Tea Party.  That's pretty damn insulting; if you think Progressives are some kind of wackos while believing that corrupt, CAP supported Dems are looking out for the average person's well being than you have been convinced to vote against your own well being.  I agree that some Tea Party Types might need healthcare,  clean water, etc. but that's not what the tea party was about.  The Tea Party was Koch Brother Libertarianism which wanted limited government interference.  I would not be surprised that some Tea Party people might figure out that Bernie Sanders approach might make their lives better than the Koch brother's did.

Just to be clear, I was commenting on you and your alter ego, not on progressives in general. And specifically I was calling you out on all this purist nonsense about every democrat that does not 100% agree with you all of a sudden is a "corporate democrat" or "old school republican" or whatever labels you want to put on them. Reminds me a lot of the tea parties going after republicans that they thought were not radical enough (remember RINO?). You are doing exactly the same.

Oh, and by the way, 2 years ago this same nonsense (Bernie's luke-warm support for Hillary after she beat him) probably cost us the election and got us Trump. So please spare me this nonsense.

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jeffl
Discussion: Note Dame is burning

saw this online.  

An update about the Notre-Dame fire:

There's been a lot of reports going around that seem to misrepresent the extent of the damage. Watching the fire take hold yesterday was horrific and emotional on many levels, not least because at many points it seemed as though the entire cathedral would be destroyed. But, there's been some astoundingly good news since:

* Almost all of what we saw burning yesterday was the roof of the cathedral. This was made of old timbers felled in the early 13th century which were then covered in lead to create the exterior we're so familiar with. If you saw aerial footage of the burning church yesterday, what you saw was this part of the structure, which collapsed onto the mason vault which forms the interior roof of the church. When you read reports talking about how 2/3 of the roof was destroyed, they are referring to this wood and lead construction.

* The spire also collapsed, but it was also not the original spire, which had been destroyed by weather and removed in the 1700s. The spire that collapsed yesterday was installed in the mid 1800s, and was larger and more ornate than the original.

* The fact that more of the cathedral was not ruined is a testament to the ingenuity of its original architects. Notre-Dame is an incredibly well-designed building, which is largely why it has withstood the test of time so well. The vault I mentioned earlier was intentionally built to protect the interior of the building and slow the spread of fire in case of just the sort of scenario we saw yesterday. Here's a quote I found about this:

“It’s not that they’re designed to be burned down, but it’s designed so that if the roof burns off, it’s hard for [the fire] to spread to the rest of the building,” says Lisa Reilly, an associate professor of architectural history at the University of Virginia and a scholar of medieval architecture. “In the Middle Ages, the thought was that stone vaults [could be] used to prevent the spread of fire.”

That's incredible.

* The flying buttresses on the side of the building also did a lot to protect the structure. While the vault helps support the architecture on the inside, the buttresses keep it standing along the outside. Again: well done architects and designers of centuries ago.

* Many of the most iconic features of the cathedral remain intact. The bell towers, which were in danger yesterday, have survived. All three of the major rose windows are intact. The large organ inside was very dusty and is a bit clogged with smoke, but otherwise came through unharmed. Much of the artwork and relics were safely removed. It is hard to say what the toll is here, but it sounds as though it is far from the worst that we feared.

* Finally, NO ONE DIED. One firefighter and two police officers were injured, but there were no fatalities. Again, this is no coincidence: The Paris fire department had protocols in place for how to respond to emergencies of this nature. The first priority was to protect the people, followed by the relics and artwork, and finally the structure. They executed that strategy to a T, and boy did it pay off. Some things are replaceable; human lives aren't.

When it comes to the reconstruction work ahead, a lot has already been donated. Another factor working in our favor here is that Notre-Dame is one of the most meticulously studied buildings in the world. We have laser scans of the entire structure showing how it was built. We have reams of information about the artwork and architecture, not to mention detailed photography about every section of this building. We have the blueprints. We can rebuild.

History is filled with the stories of lost buildings, lost artwork, lost records. It is also filled with stories of reconstruction. Notre-Dame de Paris was not lost. Like every structure its age, it has survived many calamities, although none as catastrophic as the one we witnessed yesterday. Just for perspective, its famous South Rose Window was so damaged in the nineteenth century that it had to be entirely rebuilt in 1861, to the extent that it was even rotated 15 degrees on its axis to create a more vertical alignment. While some of the medieval glass remained, other panes had to be replaced with new glass in the same style. Other sections have been rebuilt or replaced over the ages. This is just another step in that process.

The bottom line is: Notre-Dame is still standing. The fire was shocking and unnerving. For those of us who love history, art, and testaments to human endeavor, it was a really close call. But we were spared the worst, and most of us will have another chance to visit it during our lives and see it restored to its former glory. The heart of Paris beats.

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nohero
Discussion: 2020 - Candidates
paulsurovell said:
I just watched an MSNBC segment on Pete and the discussion was about how he effectively challenges Pence's misuse of religion to promote homophobia, and I agree he does a great job.

Now I'd like to see Mayor Pete challenge Pence for his criminal and inhumane actions in the Trump-Bolton-Pence attempt to overthrow the government of Venezuela by suffocating its already troubled economy, causing increased suffering among the Venezuelan people. And threatening a military invasion if that doesn't work.
I'd like to know where Mayor Pete stands on this Trump-Bolton-Pence rebirth of the Monroe Doctrine and Yankee Imperialism that so many Democrats have embraced, after two years of raging about alleged foreign "meddling" in our politics.


 You want a candidate to buy into your fantasy.

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paulsurovell
Discussion: 2020 - Candidates
basil said:


Dennis_Seelbach said:

jamie said:
so - will 90% of the 2020 candidates thread be paul and nan trolling that Bernie is being unfairly treated?  This is really annoying guys - can you start a "Bernie is being treated fairly" thread and let everyone else discuss the candidates?  
You already have this thread:
https://maplewood.worldwebs.com/forums/discussion/so-much-for-unity-at-the-dnc-corporate-democrats-purge-bernie-backers
 Jamie, what are the chances of changing the "like" button to a range of choices, ala Facebook? That way, we could save time in responding to the nanpaul crappola, by merely hitting "gagging".
They had nanpauls in the GOP too, they were called Tea Party and then Freedom Caucus and now Trump is president and the GOP is lobotomized. Let's make sure the same thing doesn't happen to us.

 Well this is not a nice thing to say about the 13 million plus Democrats who supported Bernie in 2016.

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